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The Barstool Experiment

Started by LHX, June 13, 2006, 05:31:36 PM

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Jasper

I was responding to:

Quote from: Politician168023I appreciate what all of you have been saying, and agree, and understand... And yet I somehow feel that I have to tie all the viewpoints together.. many posts seem to say the same thing in a different way.. Many miss the point of the writer because they pick one piece up and analyse it, missing the general point.

And I'd assumed (for no particular reason) that he meant to tie all the various PD flavoured philosophies together.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: LMNO on February 06, 2008, 06:38:31 PM
As far as I see it, the BE depicts the occasionally useful, and often overlooked, values of common sense and pragmatism.

Think about it:  These two guys were arguing about the possibility of whether the physical world exists, while they were existing in that world.

Now, while it's often amusing, and perhaps even enlightening some of the time, you have to remember that if you actually start believing that the world you're creating in your head, it's gonna get awfully difficult when you try to interact with what's going on outside your head.

In a way, it's another version of eating the menu; just because you can argue (and even convince yourself) that the barstool doesn't exist, it's still coming straight at your head.


Duck!


Yes... except the difference is that one is a suggestion "Don't eat the menu, it causes gas", the other is simply an act of physical violence. The more I think about it, the more it seems that what feels missing to me is justification. The bar stool wielder doesn't really seem to have any justification for the act, except that he appears pissed off at not winning the argument. I know that isn't the intent, but to me that's how it seems to register.

One of the things I appreciate most about the Cosmic Schmuck principle is that its self-referential. "The more often you realize that you are acting like a Cosmic Schmuck, the less likely you will be to act like one." Now, maybe this is due to the difference that we seem to have on Discordian philosophy (I tend to see it as personal, some here seem to see it as something to inflict on others). So maybe that's the thing that doesn't work for me and this particular metaphor...
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Cramulus

dumb question perhaps - but you know the metaphor is not a suggestion to physically hit people with a barstool, right?

LMNO

Rat, the violence is meant as slapstick.



If it would feel better, perhaps you would prefer the "stick experiment"?

Two men argue about the existence of a stick, and a third comes up and starts poking them with it?

AFK

I think of the piece LHX wrote for the BIP the piece about toxicity.  In it he wrote the following (this is from the original version of BIP btw):

"some of us 'love' some of these beings which brings to light the messiness of the situation
do 'us' and 'them' have a future together?

to say no
implies some drama
some might suggest tragedy
i dont even think i want to continue"

So yes, to a degree is is personal.  But, in another sense it goes beyond the personal.  But I don't think of it as "inflicting Discordian philosophy" as much as just wanting people to be aware.  Let them draw their own conclusions but allowing them to see more of the picture.  
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Professor Cramulus on February 06, 2008, 07:32:05 PM
dumb question perhaps - but you know the metaphor is not a suggestion to physically hit people with a barstool, right?


I do!  :lulz:

Quote from: LMNO on February 06, 2008, 07:35:12 PM
Rat, the violence is meant as slapstick.

Yeah, I know that... It just feels wonky in the metaphor... I'm trying to find some way of expression that can help me dig out what doesn't seem to be working, but apparently I'm not getting the communication across well... or I'm crazy (either seems possible). I can't quite figure if its the way its being told or the point its trying to get across.

Quote
If it would feel better, perhaps you would prefer the "stick experiment"?

Two men argue about the existence of a stick, and a third comes up and starts poking them with it?

Maybe the problem lies in how its being told... perhaps if it were laid out differently...

For example, when I see the metaphor laid out, it usually works out that Person A says "Can't prove the Universe exists!" Person B says "Indeed, maybe not even this barstool!" and Person C hits them in the head with a bar stool.

The metaphor, as a model (not the reality), seems to suggest that person A and person B are assholes because they're blathering about some philosophical idea... yet, the points they bring up may be valid, particularly for two people to be discussing at a bar. The third person appears to have no justification for the act, other than that they personally didn't like the topic of conversation.

Maybe that's it. At the end of the story, I seem to feel as though the whole load of them might have been Cosmic Schmucks, but the Stool Wielder  appears more of a Cosmic Schmuck than the other two.

Argh... I really like the point its trying to make... something just seems incomplete in the metaphor...

Maybe if the two philosophers were so embroiled in their pontification over the non-existence of the barstool that they missed the start of a bar fight and were both clubbed with barstools in the fray it would feel much better to me... in that instance, the metaphor makes no judgement of mental masturbation, but it does make a statement about remaining aware of the reality we live in. It also seems to replace some Schmuck with self-righteous barstool wielding powers, with the random chaos of existence.

Does that make any sense, or should I just shut up now? :wink:
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

AFK

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on June 17, 2006, 12:53:22 PM
One fine Maine evening, rife with the buzzing of mosquitos and the nearby substation, Chuck and I decided to put in an appearance at Joe's Hole In The Wall to enjoy our favourite spirits.

It came to be that we once again were discussing the finer, and duller, points of the universe and existence.  It was much more appealing than watching the Red Sox, yet again, implode upon the TV hanging from the ceiling next to the moose carcass.

Meanwhile a couple of chaps down the bar are also embroiled in their own deep discussion.  

"No man, I'm telling you there's a purple monkey right there on your shoulder"  one shouted.

"Dude, there isn't any stinking monkey on my shoulder.  That's just your 12th Rolling Rock talking." replied the other.

At which point Chuck and I had to interject.

"Excuse me my friend.  But what has you so convinced that there is not a purple monkey on your shoulder?"  Chuck asked.

"I ain't your friend freako!  And besides I don't see any monkey here on my shoulder.  You think I'd notice something like that."

"You assume it's your friend's drunken hallucination that is creating the purple monkey in his mind.  Has it ever occurred to you that it may be your drunken hallucination that is cloaking this very real purple monkey that is now urinating on your red flannel shirt?"  I asked of the man.

"I'm telling you man.  He's right there and this dude's right.  He's pissing all over your new shirt man."

"Here," I said.  And I handed him a book and a knife.  "Here's all that you need to see that which you cannot see."

And, as predicted, he proceeded to stab himself in the shoulder.

No one was particularily enlightened and Chuck and I were yet again banned from another bar.

The End.

Maybe you like this one?
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 06, 2008, 08:07:11 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on June 17, 2006, 12:53:22 PM
One fine Maine evening, rife with the buzzing of mosquitos and the nearby substation, Chuck and I decided to put in an appearance at Joe's Hole In The Wall to enjoy our favourite spirits.

It came to be that we once again were discussing the finer, and duller, points of the universe and existence.  It was much more appealing than watching the Red Sox, yet again, implode upon the TV hanging from the ceiling next to the moose carcass.

Meanwhile a couple of chaps down the bar are also embroiled in their own deep discussion.  

"No man, I'm telling you there's a purple monkey right there on your shoulder"  one shouted.

"Dude, there isn't any stinking monkey on my shoulder.  That's just your 12th Rolling Rock talking." replied the other.

At which point Chuck and I had to interject.

"Excuse me my friend.  But what has you so convinced that there is not a purple monkey on your shoulder?"  Chuck asked.

"I ain't your friend freako!  And besides I don't see any monkey here on my shoulder.  You think I'd notice something like that."

"You assume it's your friend's drunken hallucination that is creating the purple monkey in his mind.  Has it ever occurred to you that it may be your drunken hallucination that is cloaking this very real purple monkey that is now urinating on your red flannel shirt?"  I asked of the man.

"I'm telling you man.  He's right there and this dude's right.  He's pissing all over your new shirt man."

"Here," I said.  And I handed him a book and a knife.  "Here's all that you need to see that which you cannot see."

And, as predicted, he proceeded to stab himself in the shoulder.

No one was particularily enlightened and Chuck and I were yet again banned from another bar.

The End.

Maybe you like this one?


ROFL!!!  :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Not quite the same moral, but a good one nonetheless!!
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

AFK

There are a couple other examples earlier in the thread as well, Rog did one and some other dude named Reptyle who doesn't post here anymore. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 06, 2008, 08:13:05 PM
There are a couple other examples earlier in the thread as well, Rog did one and some other dude named Reptyle who doesn't post here anymore. 

In which thread? This one? (wonders if he missed something)
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

LMNO

Well Rat, I have to admit, I wrote this on the fly; it's a fairly condensed version.  I intended to flesh it out, but eventually just said "fuck it".

However, it really seems you get the idea of the BE:  Why don't you write your own version?  Who know, it could become definitive...

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: LMNO on February 06, 2008, 08:16:48 PM
Well Rat, I have to admit, I wrote this on the fly; it's a fairly condensed version.  I intended to flesh it out, but eventually just said "fuck it".

However, it really seems you get the idea of the BE:  Why don't you write your own version?  Who know, it could become definitive...

A Definitive Discordian Parable?!

Zounds!
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

LMNO

Indeed, did many things come to pass.

AFK

Quote from: Ratatosk on February 06, 2008, 08:15:32 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 06, 2008, 08:13:05 PM
There are a couple other examples earlier in the thread as well, Rog did one and some other dude named Reptyle who doesn't post here anymore. 

In which thread? This one? (wonders if he missed something)

Yeah, Rog's is on page 2 or 3 and the one from Reptyle was a page or two after.  There may be more than that but I forget and was too lazy to go through all of them. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Cramulus

I view the barstool story as a way of reminding myself that talk is cheap and - in many situations - pointless.

Tons of people have had conversations - well argued, eloquent, intelligent conversations - about the state of politics or how to fix world hunger or the environment or something of other grave importance. But unless you get off your ass and DO SOMETHING, all the talk in the world means zip.

I was at a party last week and these drunken guys were arguing about whether they should vote for Obama or Hillary. Here's the barstool - most of them weren't even reigstered to vote. Lot of good their heated discussion did on Super Tuesday. I guess they got to show off their opinions to each other though.


One day I was trying to calm down a friend who was angry and self-destructive about a recent breakup. I kept trying to mellow him out by explain to him that emotions are only chemicals, and that he shouldn't take recent events so seriously because it's all just a bunch of stupid little chemical reactions. "Yeah," he said, wielding the barstool against me, "Sure - misery is just a bunch of neurotransmitters. But knowing that doesn't make me feel any better."


Or tell Ron Paul supporters that - really now - even armed with the mandate of the popular vote, their savior couldn't possibly elimate the IRS. They're so high on rhetoric or idealism that they're no longer talking about things which could actually happen.


The Barstool says "snap out of it for a second - look at what you can REALLY expect to accomplish. Then talk about that."