The curse called hope

[Scribbly]

I think that's pretty much my point... hope is generally associated with change, yes, so I hope I get to see the world change for the better in my lifetime, hell, I even hope I'll be able to play a part in it. Its not likely, and it won't be easy, nobody ever said anything in life would be easy, but I hope it'll happen nonetheless.

If I didn't have hope that things would change for the better, I wouldn't be here.

And again, depending on your viewpoint, the examples of the horrors of hope can be viewed in a positive light-

Daryls story seems pretty clear to me as a tragic case, but what would you rather have had him do? He had hope he would be saved somehow, his alternative to a long, lingering death was a quick one, but on the other hand, there was always the chance (slim as it may have been) that he would have been saved. Without that hope, he would have died sooner, and if that chance -had- come along, that's one more death that could have been prevented.

Hell, I know that no matter what condition I might be in, I would want to cling to life for as long as possible, much like Daryl, in the hope that it would get better. Why? Because I find the concept of dying terrifying, but maybe that is just me.

As for slavery, I wouldn't say its the hope of escape, but the hope of freedom that kept them going. If they hadn't had that hope, they would all have been killed, and look at where that would leave us today. And if you really think slavery is abandoned today, you are wrong, that's all I'm going to say on that. But those people have -hope- that they will be freed, and particularly in the sex slave trade in the western world, that hope has kept many women alive, and yes, lots are freed.

Hope is what keeps humans going in the direst of situations, hope is the glimmer of spirit that keeps people struggling on despite the most dire circumstances. Hope is what makes those mountaineers who chew through their own arm to get away, or those citizens who rise up against the evil empire, or whatever, act.

Hope is not apathy, it can, however, lead to the belief that by not acting today, the hope of a better world tomorrow can be found.

Sometimes this is correct, sometimes it isn't. But on a more personal level, hope is what keeps people with terminal illnesses struggling on, and hope is what sometimes pulls them through.

Where is the 'intrisic evil' of hope in that situation?

[AFK]

I think the notion of hope CAN be trivial.  It has great potential to be trivial.

It's a dangerous implement that people can use at their detriment.  Those are the bliss-ninnies who think as long as they are optimistic that everything will be alright.  

However, I can have Realistic Hope(tm).  Which, basically, is keeping your eyes on your target but not putting the blinders on.  You "hope" you can reach your goal by putting forth your best efforts.  However, you are simultaneously going to survey the field around you.  Because, you know that at any point something and/or someone could trip you up.  If you aren't paying attention you will lose.  

So, Bliss-Ninny Hope(tm) is for suckers.
Realistic Hope(tm) is for the responsible folk.

[LHX]

this developed into a nice thread

[LHX]

I think the notion of hope CAN be trivial.  It has great potential to be trivial.

It's a dangerous implement that people can use at their detriment.  Those are the bliss-ninnies who think as long as they are optimistic that everything will be alright.  

However, I can have Realistic Hope(tm).  Which, basically, is keeping your eyes on your target but not putting the blinders on. You "hope" you can reach your goal by putting forth your best efforts.  However, you are simultaneously going to survey the field around you.  Because, you know that at any point something and/or someone could trip you up.  If you aren't paying attention you will lose.  

So, Bliss-Ninny Hope(tm) is for suckers.
Realistic Hope(tm) is for the responsible folk.

maybe that's what i'm trying to get at here

putting forth your best efforts IS the only reasonable goal

hope can often seem to be a trivial by-product of little consequence


you can't 'hope' to put forth your best effort



its interesting that 'hope' was mentioned involving PD06
because the ensuing discussions suggested to me that it was less about 'hope' and more about being a progression in a process

[AFK]

I agree with these statements.  

Do or do not.  There is no try.

[/star wars geek quote]

[LMNO]

I think we're drawing a line between, "I hope that if I sit here and do nothing, that something will change for the better," and "I hope that this thing I'm doing to change my situation for the better will actually work..."


In both cases, hope seems to be acting not as an instigator of action, but an optimistic predictor of the future.


So, maybe I replied too hastily.  Hope seems to have little to do with change, but is more a function of optimism.

So, we should be looking at what is the difference between an optimist who thinks that things might change if they do nothing (not "mu/wu-wei" nothing), and the optimist who thinks what they do will change somthing.

[LHX]

Hope seems to have little to do with change, but is more a function of optimism.

i can get behind this

So, we should be looking at what is the difference between an optimist who thinks that things might change if they do nothing (not "mu/wu-wei" nothing), and the optimist who thinks what they do will change somthing.

from my perspective, it seems to be a measure of 2 things
1 - how much a person identifies themselves as part of a process
2 - how much a person identifies that they have responsibilities to be carried out within the process

and a corollary of #2 would be a measure of what repercussions a person faces if they don't attend to their responsibilities as they have understood them

a lot of this speaks to the old fate v free will argument


as far as optimism goes -
is it optimistic or objective to observe the apparently relentless eventual balance of all things?

[LMNO]

Although I see where you're going...


[semantics]

to "observe" tends to negate the optimisim or pessimism of a thing, seeing as how optimism and pessimism are subjective.

[/semantics]


However, to answer you directly, I think it depends on what side of the pendulum you're on.

For the example, the story about the king who wanted to be cheered up whenever he was in a bad mood, and received a ring that was inscribed, "and this, too, shall pass," could also be told about a king who wanted to get bummed out every time he was happy.

[LHX]

Although I see where you're going...


[semantics]

to "observe" tends to negate the optimisim or pessimism of a thing, seeing as how optimism and pessimism are subjective.

[/semantics]

yeah - we can leave that aspect of the discussion out of this for now

However, to answer you directly, I think it depends on what side of the pendulum you're on.

For the example, the story about the king who wanted to be cheered up whenever he was in a bad mood, and received a ring that was inscribed, "and this, too, shall pass," could also be told about a king who wanted to get bummed out every time he was happy.

we have tools

and we learn how to use them in anticipation of finding ourselves on either side of the pendulum

one of the thrills of being the type of folk who thrive on 'new' and 'unknown' (the type who arent afraid to see the known universe for what it is)



and if you're gonna call me on my trivial pants scenario
then i have to call you on a king who wanted to get bummed out every time he was happy

[LMNO]

touche.


My point was, of course, that to believe that things balance themselves out is a comfort when times are bad, but a discomfort when times are good.

[AFK]

I don't think either example is trivial.  Because both lend themselves to the untrivial if you are open to it.  Wasn't that one of our points in PD06.  As soon as you start limiting your thoughts and possibilities you are allowing the lock to be a lock.  

I gave the example of the freak wind spoiling the attempt at putting ones pants on.  Sure, it may seem outlandish but it could happen.

[LMNO]

I think I see maybe logic on the horizon...

[LHX]

I think I see maybe logic on the horizon...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[B_M_W]

touche.


My point was, of course, that to believe that things balance themselves out is a comfort when times are bad, but a discomfort when times are good.

My dad tells me, when we go out target practicing for traditional archery, that it is best to not get happy when you hit, and not get down when you miss. Merely shoot.

My dad is kinda Zen sometimes...

[LMNO]

Indeed.

That's the way it was fopr me when I was shooting trap/skeet.