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What is The Machine™

Started by LMNO, July 19, 2006, 12:56:06 PM

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LMNO

To be honest, I was as well.

The Machine™ to me, is all the vast interconnections that appear to have sentience.  Typically, we notice it more when that percieved sentience seems to be kicking you in the balls.

What creates those interconnections can be distilled in many different ways.


So, in my lighthearted way, I was trying to tie in both Rat's and Kai's ideas.


LMNO
-Not as stupid as he sounds.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

It was funny and insightful... best of both worlds   :lol:
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Requia ☣

Quote from: Ratatosk on May 19, 2010, 08:26:18 PM
So then the Machine is a model, generally with negative connotations that different authors/writers/pd posters use to reference some aspect of reality that they dislike? Form some its the Political Machine, for others the Social Machine, for others the Consumerist Machine etc etc etc

Maybe the Machine is the stuff that urges the individual to conform to behaviors that they may not otherwise conform to?



Giving the machine negative qualities is, I think, a mistake.  The machine isn't really bad, except to the extent that it keeps things from getting better, but it only does that because it resists change, and it resists bad change just as much as the good.  So the machine keeps things at that 'just good enough' level that prevents people from tearing it down and building a better one (or trying at least).
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.

Kai

Quote from: LMNO on May 19, 2010, 08:45:03 PM
To be honest, I was as well.

The Machine™ to me, is all the vast interconnections that appear to have sentience.  Typically, we notice it more when that percieved sentience seems to be kicking you in the balls.

What creates those interconnections can be distilled in many different ways.


So, in my lighthearted way, I was trying to tie in both Rat's and Kai's ideas.


LMNO
-Not as stupid as he sounds.

Okay, now I understand. I didn't get the reference before, whatever it was.

The Machine is Emergence at the social level.
If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water. --Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey

Her Royal Majesty's Chief of Insect Genitalia Dissection
Grand Visser of the Six Legged Class
Chanticleer of the Holometabola Clade Church, Diptera Parish

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 19, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 19, 2010, 08:26:18 PM
So then the Machine is a model, generally with negative connotations that different authors/writers/pd posters use to reference some aspect of reality that they dislike? Form some its the Political Machine, for others the Social Machine, for others the Consumerist Machine etc etc etc

Maybe the Machine is the stuff that urges the individual to conform to behaviors that they may not otherwise conform to?



Giving the machine negative qualities is, I think, a mistake.  The machine isn't really bad, except to the extent that it keeps things from getting better, but it only does that because it resists change, and it resists bad change just as much as the good.  So the machine keeps things at that 'just good enough' level that prevents people from tearing it down and building a better one (or trying at least).

Maybe its not a negative quality... I mean for the TYFS crowd sure... but for the average Joe that only gets up in the morning and goes to work because the Machine pushes him... well that's what makes civilization work.

Sometimes I wonder if life without a Machine would be better or worse...
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Kai

Quote from: Ratatosk on May 19, 2010, 09:57:05 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 19, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 19, 2010, 08:26:18 PM
So then the Machine is a model, generally with negative connotations that different authors/writers/pd posters use to reference some aspect of reality that they dislike? Form some its the Political Machine, for others the Social Machine, for others the Consumerist Machine etc etc etc

Maybe the Machine is the stuff that urges the individual to conform to behaviors that they may not otherwise conform to?



Giving the machine negative qualities is, I think, a mistake.  The machine isn't really bad, except to the extent that it keeps things from getting better, but it only does that because it resists change, and it resists bad change just as much as the good.  So the machine keeps things at that 'just good enough' level that prevents people from tearing it down and building a better one (or trying at least).

Maybe its not a negative quality... I mean for the TYFS crowd sure... but for the average Joe that only gets up in the morning and goes to work because the Machine pushes him... well that's what makes civilization work.

Sometimes I wonder if life without a Machine would be better or worse...

Social insects wouldn't be so diverse, cosmopolitan and ubiquitous without their respective "machines".

I think the same is true for humans.
If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water. --Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey

Her Royal Majesty's Chief of Insect Genitalia Dissection
Grand Visser of the Six Legged Class
Chanticleer of the Holometabola Clade Church, Diptera Parish

Requia ☣

Quote from: Ratatosk on May 19, 2010, 09:57:05 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 19, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 19, 2010, 08:26:18 PM
So then the Machine is a model, generally with negative connotations that different authors/writers/pd posters use to reference some aspect of reality that they dislike? Form some its the Political Machine, for others the Social Machine, for others the Consumerist Machine etc etc etc

Maybe the Machine is the stuff that urges the individual to conform to behaviors that they may not otherwise conform to?



Giving the machine negative qualities is, I think, a mistake.  The machine isn't really bad, except to the extent that it keeps things from getting better, but it only does that because it resists change, and it resists bad change just as much as the good.  So the machine keeps things at that 'just good enough' level that prevents people from tearing it down and building a better one (or trying at least).

Maybe its not a negative quality... I mean for the TYFS crowd sure... but for the average Joe that only gets up in the morning and goes to work because the Machine pushes him... well that's what makes civilization work.

Sometimes I wonder if life without a Machine would be better or worse...

We kind of need the machine.  At the very least the part of it that keeps food on the grocery store shelves.
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.

Kai

Is it possible to modify and rebuild The Machine part by part?
If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water. --Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey

Her Royal Majesty's Chief of Insect Genitalia Dissection
Grand Visser of the Six Legged Class
Chanticleer of the Holometabola Clade Church, Diptera Parish

Telarus

See the anime Naausica and the Valley of the Winds.
Telarus, KSC,
.__.  Keeper of the Contradictory Cephalopod, Zenarchist Swordsman,
(0o)  Tender to the Edible Zen Garden, Ratcheting Metallic Sex Doll of The End Times,
/||\   Episkopos of the Amorphous Dreams Cabal

Join the Doll Underground! Experience the Phantasmagorical Safari!

Kai

Quote from: Telarus on May 20, 2010, 12:37:37 AM
See the anime Naausica and the Valley of the Winds.

Seen it, don't remember it well. Tell me how this is relevant.
If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water. --Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey

Her Royal Majesty's Chief of Insect Genitalia Dissection
Grand Visser of the Six Legged Class
Chanticleer of the Holometabola Clade Church, Diptera Parish

Telarus

During the last Great War, giant robots capable of unleashing directed atomic construction were created. Thousands of years later, much of the landscape is uninhabitable, ranging between desolate dead radioactive wastes and the 'fungi jungle'. The fungus constantly encroaches on the people's croplands, so "the machine's" programmed response is to kill any fungus, or any fungus carrying insectoid creature with flamethrowers (you see much of this in the 'coastal kingdom', less of it in the isolated fortress cities).

Nausicaa's a crazy chick on a flying wing-board (japanese goddess/princess trope) who learns to understand that the Big Smart insectoids and the fungus jungle serve to clean the radioactivity out of the soil and water (for those who haven't seen the movie, I'll stop there). The only hope humanity has is Nausicaa convincing the Machine (as represented by factions of feuding Authorities with their own military forces) _not_ to kill the Insectoids/fungus when each military is busy killing everyone else including the fungus (...again, I'm leaving this vague for those that haven't seen it and don't know the mcGuffin at the end), and to leave the fungi jungle to do its thing. Because in just a few human generations, huge swaths of land will be inhabitable and green again....... unless the soldiers torture and burn down Gaia's immune system.

Really Good dystopian post-apoc film from studio Ghibli.







Telarus, KSC,
.__.  Keeper of the Contradictory Cephalopod, Zenarchist Swordsman,
(0o)  Tender to the Edible Zen Garden, Ratcheting Metallic Sex Doll of The End Times,
/||\   Episkopos of the Amorphous Dreams Cabal

Join the Doll Underground! Experience the Phantasmagorical Safari!

Kai

That's nice, but I meant in this world.

Also, looks like I need to review that OVA.
If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water. --Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey

Her Royal Majesty's Chief of Insect Genitalia Dissection
Grand Visser of the Six Legged Class
Chanticleer of the Holometabola Clade Church, Diptera Parish

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

So this is where it gets kinky... cause in every society... in every incarnation of the Machine, there are the fools, tricksters, anti-machines....

So are they also just part of the machine, perhaps necessary for it to work well? IE, by railing against the machine, do we (and American Rap/metal bands) simply follow the direction of the machine?

- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

LMNO

Quote from: Ratatosk on May 20, 2010, 03:24:36 PM
So are they also just part of the machine, perhaps necessary for it to work well? IE, by railing against the machine, do we (and American Rap/metal bands) simply follow the direction of the machine?

If it makes people more comfortable, then yes.

Cosine 5

Quote from: Kai on May 19, 2010, 09:53:54 PM
The Machine is Emergence at the social level.

Quote
People will believe any insanity if it allows them to belong to a real or imagined community.
(chaosmarxism)

Tell me if I'm misunderstanding this:
- the Machine is the status quo. It tries to maintain social stability and order.
- the Machine, like money, is an idea that only exists because people believe it.
- the best way to invoke change in society is to rebuild the machine, rather than wrecking it.
not quite there yet.