Mechanical Alchemy

[LMNO]

in the sense that without "resorting to capitalism" you would be devoid of running water, electricity, and technology; that you would have to grow and hunt your own food, or be able to provide some sort of desirable service to be bartered; and that you woul dnot have access to medical services... then yes, it is that hard to believe.


Have fun spending the rest of your life on "Survivor", minus the TV cameras.

[Cain]

Actually, we have the NHS over here.  And I've never been asked for ID or proof of paying taxes, ever.

[LMNO]

NHS = a product of capitalism.


Or is this a parallel of a vegan who wears leather?

[Cain]

Troof, point made.

[P3nT4gR4m]

in the sense that without "resorting to capitalism" you would be devoid of running water, electricity, and technology; that you would have to grow and hunt your own food, or be able to provide some sort of desirable service to be bartered; and that you woul dnot have access to medical services... then yes, it is that hard to believe.


Have fun spending the rest of your life on "Survivor", minus the TV cameras.

But aint all these things you mentioned constructs of the machine or the con? Wasn't life better before all this crap happened? I holiday on remote islands, there is running water - it runs down the side of hills. It's how you choose your campsites. Hunting and gathering is a lot more fun than a trip to the supermarket. Sure yea - I'm a tourist, a bubblegummer, I can go back to my comfy 3 bed semi and medical plan if it gets to rough. But I also know I can survive without them. And I know for a week or two every year that I prefer to. And that thought comforts me. Being dependant on all this shit is disturbing.

[LMNO]

Use of tools and developing more efficient technology is, to me, not the CoN or the Machine,Ñ¢. 

Lack of recognition of your perceptual limitations, and the manipulation of human behavior for selfish gain, to me, are aspects of the CoN and the Machine,Ñ¢.


Personally, I don't want to spend my entire mental and physical energies devoted purely to phsical survival.  I feel my brain is too big to foolishly waste it like that.




LMNO
-knows that growing and hunting my own food, making and reparing clothes and shelter, and staying warm and disease-free would literally use every waking hour.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Use of tools and developing more efficient technology is, to me, not the CoN or the Machine,Ñ¢. 

Lack of recognition of your perceptual limitations, and the manipulation of human behavior for selfish gain, to me, are aspects of the CoN and the Machine,Ñ¢.


Personally, I don't want to spend my entire mental and physical energies devoted purely to phsical survival.  I feel my brain is too big to foolishly waste it like that.


LMNO
-knows that growing and hunting my own food, making and reparing clothes and shelter, and staying warm and disease-free would literally use every waking hour.

I think its a fine line. I mean you pretty much waste most of your life doing some dull, repetitive job in order to get clothing, food and shelter anyway. The way I see it you're just trading one method for another. Bottom line - you gotta work to survive, regardless. The thing that bothers me about modern life (A thing - not everything - I'm a fan honestly) is the propensity for laziness to be rewarded with life. ie useless slobs who would last 10 mins in a back-to-basics scenario, end up breeding a whole line of sluglike spawn.

Struggle creates strength, lack of struggle - weakness. I do feel that we're shitting in our own genepool but I don't tend to dwell to much on that thought since I'm sure there's nazi symapthies waiting to be discovered down that particular hole. I really would recommend you try back-to-basics, even once for a week or two. You might be surprised how fulfilling it is eating something you caught or sleeping in something you built. It's a real zen trip and it makes you realise just how boring going to work everyday and doing some meaningless, repetitive bollix really is. And it doesn't use every waking hour, it uses significantly less than the 8 you're used to, once you get the hang of it. I'd rather spend 3 hours chasing a deer with a crossbow than 8 hours chasing a line with a pen.

[LMNO]

I won't bother dealing with the fact that there seems to be a hidden technophobic/Luddite aspect to your argument.

Instead:

3 hours to chase & kill deer.

2 hours to hang, bleed, skin, gut, and carve deer meat.

1 hour to get back to camp.

1 hour to collect wood and build a fire.

1 hour to roast meat for evening meal (oops, no veggies).

2 hours to prep leftover meat for smoking.

5 hours to smoke remaining meat.

Entire process ~ 15 hours.

Now, make time for bathing, reparing the lean-to, gathering vegetables, and making/reparing clothes.


Please keep in mind that the average day is 10 hours, and other than candles, there is no artificial light source.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I won't bother dealing with the fact that there seems to be a hidden technophobic/Luddite aspect to your argument.

Instead:

3 hours to chase & kill deer.

2 hours to hang, bleed, skin, gut, and carve deer meat.

1 hour to get back to camp.

1 hour to collect wood and build a fire.

1 hour to roast meat for evening meal (oops, no veggies).

2 hours to prep leftover meat for smoking.

5 hours to smoke remaining meat.

Entire process ~ 15 hours.

Now, make time for bathing, reparing the lean-to, gathering vegetables, and making/reparing clothes.


Please keep in mind that the average day is 10 hours, and other than candles, there is no artificial light source.

You forget - 1 deer will feed 4 people for more than a week. That's less than 4 hours work, per person, per week. There's more to it than that but all in all we tend to spend about 2-4 hours per day involved in tasks I would describe as work. The rest of the time is leisure. 1 large meat kill will do for a fortnight the rest is made up of fish and rabbits which basically want to be eaten, very little hunting involved.

The technophile/luddite issue really isn't me, like I say I do this as a tourist. I like playing video games and watching dvd's as much as the next guy. It's the best of both worlds as far as I'm concerned.

[Cain]

But you mentioned doing this alone, didn't you?  Seperation of duties involved in such things implies a much more complex social and economic base than an individual would create.  And as duties are further divided and more jobs are dependent on maintaining the social order or regulating parts of it, the more complex the economic base becomes and the larger the social unit becomes.

Marx ftw.  Communism may have been a crock of shit, but he analyzed Capitalism better than Adam Smith (who incidentally is now on ¬£20 notes, wtf?)

[LMNO]

He also has said that he does it for a "vacation", which identifies it as a bourgeois hobby rather than a way of life.  I'd like to see you live that way for five years, and then let me know how liberating it is.



Cf: "Common People" by Pulp.

[P3nT4gR4m]

He also has said that he does it for a "vacation", which identifies it as a bourgeois hobby rather than a way of life.  I'd like to see you live that way for five years, and then let me know how liberating it is.



Cf: "Common People" by Pulp.

Be liberating in the sense that I'd prolly still be alive after 5 years. My whole existence is a bougeois hobby. I never denied it. Seems somehow this gives you the right to look down your nose at me. Must be nice.

[LMNO]

I'm not looking down my nose so much as I don't believe you.


There's a difference.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I'm not looking down my nose so much as I don't believe you.


There's a difference.

Fair enough. I'll cease to make extravagant claims about hunting and camping holidays. It aint really making much of a point anyway. Truth is I go on package holidays to hotels in places like spain and italy and stuff. Just like everyone else. Happy now?

[LMNO]

Not really, you capitalist pig.


LMNO
-spends summers in Montana, hearding cattle on horseback and firing shotguns.