A Brief Unverifiable History in Pictures

[LHX]

Another piece salvaged from TDN that I had cross-posted elsewhere

just for kicks

[LMNO]

We never saved any of our "origin of the lie" dialogues, did we?

[LHX]

no

we discussed that a lot over there

maybe we can still figure out a way to pick up where we left off

or re-construct it

or put together some sort of running synopsis


if i remember correctly - the dialogue was looking pretty good from both angles

[LMNO]

If I recall, we had way more than 2 angles.

[LHX]

If I recall, we had way more than 2 angles.

lmao
true

we really got down to the meat of it

[East Coast Hustle]

damn. I didn't get over there much, but I remember that thread and it was one of the most interesting discussions anywhere on the internets IMO.

[B_M_W]

It was also really intense. I found myself having trouble grasping alot of it, so much theory.

Hopefully RWHN will get the backlogs sometime.

[LHX]

every time the discussion comes up, it seems to come further out of the realm of abstract and more into the line of something observable

or at least - thats the goal of it anyway


i have to see if i can come up with some sort of summary

[AFK]

It was also really intense. I found myself having trouble grasping alot of it, so much theory.

Hopefully RWHN will get the backlogs sometime.

Well, if I don't I'll at least succeed in jamming their inboxes pretty good. 

[Triple Zero]

actually, even though i contributed a lot to it, i still don't quite get where you wanted to go with that origin of lie business

for me at least, the topic itself lead to a whole bunch of interesting discussions, but the original question "when and/or why did people and/or creatures start lying?" seems to hint to some suspicion of Big Truth that i just don't seem to get even a glimpse of..

[LHX]

actually, even though i contributed a lot to it, i still don't quite get where you wanted to go with that origin of lie business

for me at least, the topic itself lead to a whole bunch of interesting discussions, but the original question "when and/or why did people and/or creatures start lying?" seems to hint to some suspicion of Big Truth that i just don't seem to get even a glimpse of..

thats why im glad youre around yo

its true: when you forget why you started talking about the abstract, sometimes you get lost there


Cain brought up the same reminder at times


the point of departure was this:

WE CANNOT SEEM TO AGREE ON EXACTLY WHAT THE PROBLEM IS OR WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT
yet
here we are all living in the same place

thru discussing this angle - we refined and refined and refined until it led to the point where we were discussing language and communication itself

at the end of the equation is something similar to this: if you can understand the nature of language and communication, you might be better equipped to improve your situation

without getting to the root of these problems, it seems that all enterprises can be nothing more than temporary patches and fixes

[LHX]

A physical need could turn into a psychological condition in post-sentience evolution.

It could become more than just avoiding pain, it could become avoiding death as well.

Though, I would say that avoiding death would have evolved first. Do trees feel pain? No, but their processes indicate a teleos which tries to avoid death.

Though, I would say that avoiding death would have evolved first. Do trees feel pain? No, but their processes indicate a teleos which tries to avoid death.

got dam that shit is fascinating

A physical need could turn into a psychological condition in post-sentience evolution.

It could become more than just avoiding pain, it could become avoiding death as well.

that makes sense

and once it is known that things move in a way to avoid death, there is the observation that one can use that fear of death as a penalty, and apply pressure / suffering

if the penalty for disobedience is that thing that you are afraid of, then guess who is gonna obey?

the math is basic at that point



good eye Monk
good eye

why?

i really still don't get where you are trying to go with this "lie" stuff. the advantages are there, the ways to accidentally stumble upon the concept are also there. keep in mind we're talking about tens of thousands of <i>generations</i>. even a monkey could figure it out.

yeah - my hunch is that it was accidentally stumbled upon - but it was intentionally put into use

but of course.
i told you before, in order to observe the advantage, and then to put telling a lie to use, you need a certain amount of self-reflection. you can't get that without consciousness.

mmm i'm just going on a limb here, ok? let's say telling lies is advantageous to an individual. in order to tell better and better lies, one needs to develop the consciousness.


could it be?

Monk and 000 got me thinking about this again



basically:
if you can trace the steps back to the possible scenarios about how lies developed, you have a map that can be used to help get a glimpse of that non-existent or indefinable 'Big Truth' that 000 mentioned

the way it stands now - lies and 'truths' all wear the same clothes
strip the clothes away and you get to see what is what

a lot of clothes give the illusion of skin



keep stripping them away --

[Thurnez Isa]

One slight prob i have with the picture
Im not sure if our ancient ancestors had it too "safe"
It seems that life pre-civ was increasingly hard and dangerious
and to me, at least, I'm of the opinion currently that our development of early symbols was in direct relation with this lack of security, both for the practical and the psychological

[AFK]

the way it stands now - lies and 'truths' all wear the same clothes
strip the clothes away and you get to see what is what

And everyone has a different fashion sense
Is it those who get their clothes from the same tailor who decide what their "truths" are.
Kind of like the idea of the grids from PD. 
Those who share the most in common when it comes to the clothes will most likely agree on what is a lie and what is a "truth"

And then when you get disagreement on the fashion do's and don'ts thats when the trouble starts.

[LHX]

One slight prob i have with the picture
Im not sure if our ancient ancestors had it too "safe"
It seems that life pre-civ was increasingly hard and dangerious
and to me, at least, I'm of the opinion currently that our development of early symbols was in direct relation with this lack of security, both for the practical and the psychological

good point

it is important to note these types of possibilities:

possibility 1:
the ancients always had it bad and progress was a direct result of this

possibility 2:
the ancients developed/found themselves in a 'heavenly' eden-type situation, and everything which followed was set in motion on purpose


both angles are worth investigating

the way it stands now - lies and 'truths' all wear the same clothes
strip the clothes away and you get to see what is what

And everyone has a different fashion sense
Is it those who get their clothes from the same tailor who decide what their "truths" are.
Kind of like the idea of the grids from PD. 
Those who share the most in common when it comes to the clothes will most likely agree on what is a lie and what is a "truth"

And then when you get disagreement on the fashion do's and don'ts thats when the trouble starts.

to stick with the metaphor:
some people get sold bulletproof vests that turn out to be made of styrofoam


by this stage - i dont know if its important 'how many people' agree on what is true - its more about who believes it


i just started a college course, and already im getting a taste of how little imagination these youngsters have

in all honesty - its this networks of idiots here that has provided the strength and encouragement to plunge back into the shark tank and try to smack some creativity back into these fuckers


when you guys tell me ive lost it and im full of shit, i listen

but when i hear it out here - i generally dont pay too much attention