A Realistic Way for People to Live Together

[LHX]

Recently got into a discussion that tried to jolt idealism into the realm of reality regarding how people would ideally live together.

'Co-exist peacefully'

Suprisingly (or not) the technology that has developed on the internet seems to be the ideal method for communicating in this type of 'real/ideal' situation.

(Depending on whether or not you see the bulletin board technique as 'new', or just a new version of something old)

Here were the general principles (series of agreements):

Agree to:

- to never come over without being invited

- never to set in motion a process that results in any unnecessary disturbance in your vicinity (sirens, alarms, explosions, etc)

- unless otherwise requested, all communications will be placed at a 3rd party location, and will be placed there with the understanding that they may never be retreived or responded to

- never ask for a favor

- make available anything that i have an abundance of for you to use or not use as you see fit



the knee-jerk feedback has been 'there is no way to enforce those rules' which is true - it would require some notion of a different kind of justice doled out by something else in some form


the other knee-jerk reaction was 'rules arent good' - which is true
but it seems that disrespect for others is worse than having to agree on some basic rules
- also: i dont really see any lack of freedom in this scenario


if anything - it seems like these agreements fit into the whole 'do as thou wilt...' situation which seems to be the correct dirtbike to be riding thru the wilderness


seems to follow suit that if people made those type of (respectful) agreements, nobody would trip over anybody else


it lacks a certain element of romance, but people are creative



so please - take aim and blast some holes in this

is it that outlandish?

is somebody going to bring up the 'humans are animals and cant live like this' argument?

[BADGE OF HONOR]

3rd party communication leads to passive aggressive behavior.

[LHX]

3rd party communication leads to passive aggressive behavior.

what type of passive aggessive behavior?

grafitti?

[Benaclypse]

I'd put in my two cents but it's against the rules.

[LHX]

I'd put in my two cents but it's against the rules.

what you just said violates section 884.1a of Teh Rules





youre fired

[Benaclypse]

I'd put in my two cents but it's against the rules.

what you just said violates section 884.1a of Teh Rules





youre fired

I'd ask to use you as a reference but it's against the rules.

[LHX]

I'd put in my two cents but it's against the rules.

what you just said violates section 884.1a of Teh Rules





youre fired

I'd ask to use you as a reference but it's against the rules.

Thats going in your record.

Don't even think of thinking of asking for a reference.

Or else we will hire you back in order to fire you again.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

All disputes should be settled by fighting it out with 30 pound codfish as weapons.

[vexaph0d]

Nothing about these suggestions jolts idealism into reality.  These are basic 'live and let live' guidelines that ought to be common sense (and are, for anyone with any common sense).  If you're dealing with individuals, these rules are great.  But societies do not function on a strictly individual level.  People associate, form alliances, hold grudges, and seek power.  That is the nature of human civilization.  These rules do not account for the fact that people will never stop the bullshit and drop the weapons and just live peacefully.  That is never going to happen.

Furthermore, these rules do lack any form of enforcement.  The only way you would get enough people to enforce these rules on themselves to even come anywhere near making this viable, would be making a religion out of it.  And we've seen what happens when we try that.

These rules, and any variation of them, are always doomed to being empty and powerless to effect any real change in the world, because they operate from the patently false assumption that people are good to each other by default.  People are, by default, complete assholes.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Nothing about these suggestions jolts idealism into reality. 

I'll have you know that a 30 pound codfish to the face is quite a jolt.

[BADGE OF HONOR]

Well there is enforcement but it's only social contract and it only works so long as both people are happy about the situation.  First time the toilet overflows...   

[AFK]

is somebody going to bring up the 'humans are humans and probably wont live like this' argument?

fixed to my perspective.

My reasoning:
I say that humans have the potential and can live like that.  However, the track record isn't good.  And I think there are too many of us.  Back in the days of nomads and when groups of people were separated by vast stretches of unpopulated land all was, relatively, peaceful.  But when tribes, groups cross paths, watch out. 

I think History is one of the biggest Gorillas you have to wrestle with here.  If you could somehow wipe out the memories, cultures, etc. of the current human population you would have an excellent chance of making these rules work.

There is too much suspicion and envy that has been built into the human society. 

For example,

If you were somehow able to actually bring about some peace between the Israel and Palestine I think it would be a finite truce, not infinte.  Because, even though no shots are being fired.  Even though no one is blowing themselves up at a bistro, there will always be that suspicion.  "Hmm, I wonder what they are thinking about?"

I think, eventually, the suspicion and uncertainty would boil over for some pathetic reason like somone coughed without covering their mouth.  "Infidel, you try to poison me with you cold germs!"  And then it all starts again.

So, that is the problem I see.  Too much history of conflict.  I wonder, could the human race actually function/exist without conflict? 

[Laz]

From what i understand of your proposal LHX, you can at most only be talking about half of the population.

If you could isolate that half and bugger off somewhere, you would have a reasonable chance of making the society function. However you would have to make sure the people you have are all of the right type cause if there are any imposters or any of the chaos lot can get to you, you gain absolutely nothing.

In fact i'm not sure even the psyche of the good is all rule following and no mischief so perhaps your rule set could go:

Agree to:

- to never come over without being invited

- never to set in motion a process that results in any unnecessary disturbance in your vicinity (sirens, alarms, explosions, etc)

- unless otherwise requested, all communications will be placed at a 3rd party location, and will be placed there with the understanding that they may never be retreived or responded to

- never ask for a favor

- make available anything that i have an abundance of for you to use or not use as you see fit

- every now and then throw a swerve ball, avoid all the rules, muck about and act stupid, lie, cheat, and get it out of your system.

the only ones that will follow rules religiously are the machines we create to do our bidding, anything organic is gonna screw up the system.

[LHX]

is somebody going to bring up the 'humans are humans and probably wont live like this' argument?

fixed to my perspective.

My reasoning:
I say that humans have the potential and can live like that. However, the track record isn't good. And I think there are too many of us. Back in the days of nomads and when groups of people were separated by vast stretches of unpopulated land all was, relatively, peaceful. But when tribes, groups cross paths, watch out.

I think History is one of the biggest Gorillas you have to wrestle with here. If you could somehow wipe out the memories, cultures, etc. of the current human population you would have an excellent chance of making these rules work.

There is too much suspicion and envy that has been built into the human society.

For example,

If you were somehow able to actually bring about some peace between the Israel and Palestine I think it would be a finite truce, not infinte. Because, even though no shots are being fired. Even though no one is blowing themselves up at a bistro, there will always be that suspicion. "Hmm, I wonder what they are thinking about?"

I think, eventually, the suspicion and uncertainty would boil over for some pathetic reason like somone coughed without covering their mouth. "Infidel, you try to poison me with you cold germs!" And then it all starts again.

So, that is the problem I see. Too much history of conflict. I wonder, could the human race actually function/exist without conflict?

yeah - this is definitely not something that would fly right now wiff the current population

the context of the discussion was more along the lines of 'after something

a 'rebuild right' type of scenario


i would also venture to say tho that 'suspicion' is a tendency that stems from a strange (and perhaps perverse) fear of the unknown


if you can function without conflict, then we can function without conflict (just a hunch)

[LHX]

From what i understand of your proposal LHX, you can at most only be talking about half of the population.

If you could isolate that half and bugger off somewhere, you would have a reasonable chance of making the society function. However you would have to make sure the people you have are all of the right type cause if there are any imposters or any of the chaos lot can get to you, you gain absolutely nothing.

i see what youre saying - but like i said to RWHN - the only way to transition from this (what we are in now) to that would be nothing short of a complete re-building scenario

whatever that entails

In fact i'm not sure even the psyche of the good is all rule following and no mischief so perhaps your rule set could go:

like i said - i know people are allergic to rules

im more trying to define what it means to be free, while still having respect for people who share the same place you do

- every now and then throw a swerve ball, avoid all the rules, muck about and act stupid, lie, cheat, and get it out of your system.

i dont see the problem with that

lie cheat and steal all you want as long as it doesnt affect other people


people can fornicate with trees, sleep all day, stay drunk, unhygenic, etc etc

but what im sayin, or trying to say in polite terms,

is that when you act a fool in somebody elses vicinity - unnecessarily and purposely - you are inviting them to cut you down

it really has less to do with rules and more to do with determining what respect is
and what responsibility a person really has toward another person

the only ones that will follow rules religiously are the machines we create to do our bidding, anything organic is gonna screw up the system.

not everything organic is self-destructive