Making Occult Studies more Accessible

[minuspace]

Roger:  the assumption is that detached thinking will get you closer to the truth.  The challenge is to think about whether it makes sense to say that the truth is not necessarily arrived at by objective, rational and detached thought.  It's kinda like how the romantics believed in the supremacy of feeling and intuition over rationality.

[Freeky]

Roger:  the assumption is that detached thinking will get you closer to the truth.  The challenge is to think about whether it makes sense to say that the truth is not necessarily arrived at by objective, rational and detached thought.  It's kinda like how the romantics believed in the supremacy of feeling and intuition over rationality.

The romantics also believed if you bled a sick person half to death it would make them better.

So, you know.  Rationality > feelings in certain situations.

[minuspace]

Roger:  the assumption is that detached thinking will get you closer to the truth.  The challenge is to think about whether it makes sense to say that the truth is not necessarily arrived at by objective, rational and detached thought.  It's kinda like how the romantics believed in the supremacy of feeling and intuition over rationality.

The romantics also believed if you bled a sick person half to death it would make them better.

So, you know.  Rationality > feelings in certain situations.

I agree.  The question is then about whether the truth is allowed to disagree with itself.  Reason seems to take the correspondence theory of truth.  German existentialism believes truth is more akin to disclosedness, like presocratic revelation.  Reason will tend to have a more exclusive view of it's own correspondence with the truth, via principle of identity, contradiction etc.  The German existentialist vill try and explain how correspondence is just part of revelation.  Flexibility between those two points is difficult to maintain (for mice elf, that is)

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Roger:  the assumption is that detached thinking will get you closer to the truth.  The challenge is to think about whether it makes sense to say that the truth is not necessarily arrived at by objective, rational and detached thought.  It's kinda like how the romantics believed in the supremacy of feeling and intuition over rationality.

The romantics also believed if you bled a sick person half to death it would make them better.

So, you know.  Rationality > feelings in certain situations.

This isn't the time to bring up the legitimate medical uses for leeches, is it?

[East Coast Hustle]

Not only that, by why do people need to self-hypnotize to achieve results that can be achieved through cognizant effort?

I mean, if you have to trick yourself into a certain state of mind, it's probably a sign that you're not really ready to be in that state of mind.

I'm going to bump this every hour until someone gives me a satisfactory answer. This is, of course, the root problem of all this "occult" bullshit when otherwise intelligent people get sucked into it. "Occultism as a means of describing a process of self-hypnosis" is essentially this crowd's version of "I'm not a bigot, I just don't want them destroying the sanctity of traditional marriage".

I've got a large bet on the Vegas books against anyone being able to provide a satisfactory and empirically-based answer to the question.

[LMNO]

Simple: it tends to be a reliable shortcut.

I mean, you COULD spend ten years learning Japanese, or you could just read the subtitles when you watch "Yojimbo".

[minuspace]

Not only that, by why do people need to self-hypnotize to achieve results that can be achieved through cognizant effort?

I mean, if you have to trick yourself into a certain state of mind, it's probably a sign that you're not really ready to be in that state of mind.

I'm going to bump this every hour until someone gives me a satisfactory answer. This is, of course, the root problem of all this "occult" bullshit when otherwise intelligent people get sucked into it. "Occultism as a means of describing a process of self-hypnosis" is essentially this crowd's version of "I'm not a bigot, I just don't want them destroying the sanctity of traditional marriage".

I've got a large bet on the Vegas books against anyone being able to provide a satisfactory and empirically-based answer to the question.

I would not put anything down on en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Upaya

[Telarus]

I'm not going to address any of that other bullshit, but....

By meditation I mean I focus completely on my senses and cease all internal dialogue.

Out here in flyover land, we call that "relaxing".

And, as you say, none of it is magickle.  So why would anyone call it that?

Not only that, by why do people need to self-hypnotize to achieve results that can be achieved through cognizant effort?

I mean, if you have to trick yourself into a certain state of mind, it's probably a sign that you're not really ready to be in that state of mind.

Both of these positions assume that everyone has equal mental facilities and willpower to bring to bear (I think this is because both of you have had very unique life experiences which cultivated extreme individualism, self reliance, quick thinking, and willpower).

And yet, we spend most of our time around here pointing out that a majority of the population simply do not express these traits. Mainly because they are being externally manipulated by culture, distracted, diffused, turned into 'consumers'.

It's good to have the wise dude who's laughing into the storm, crying out "It's Easy, just Do It."

Those dead Zen spags had loads of them, "Stop over complicating things. Just breathe (and notice what's not permanent)."

The mind is buffeted by internal and external forces (I thought Phil Farber's lime-disease story might get that across... he's a god damn "industry professional" and it still took him weeks to notice gradual negative change in his base-line mental state). Most people on this planet don't have the willpower to even notice what's going on internally, much less leverage some control over some of the feedback loops. They're too busy worrying about the power structures/organizations which have co-opted Roger's 5 basic stressors into methods of control.


When you make these comments, you sound like black-belts addressing a group of n00bs. "When he comes at you, you just break his hand, then punch him in the kidney. Simple, see?"

IMO, mental facility needs exercise just as much as the body does. Even Bruce fucking Lee said this.

(LuciferX is like the dude who wore the goth makeup to the dojo. I told you already, I'm not addressing that bullshit. I also hope I kept this humorous enough to keep this conversational.)

[East Coast Hustle]

Simple: it tends to be a reliable shortcut.

I mean, you COULD spend ten years learning Japanese, or you could just read the subtitles when you watch "Yojimbo".

you appear to have completely ignored the second line of my post.

As for the weak analogy, well, if you actually knew Japanese you'd know how much gets lost in the translation.

[East Coast Hustle]

Thanks Telarus, that's an answer that makes enough sense to me that it only leaves me with a vague sense of disagreement that I can't quite articulate, which in this context is nearly a miracle.

[minuspace]

I'm not going to address any of that other bullshit, but....


(LuciferX is like the dude who wore the goth makeup to the dojo. I told you already, I'm not addressing that bullshit. I also hope I kept this humorous enough to keep this conversational.)

That was actually my own vomit.  But why really appears to be the problem 

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

Some people need a crutch. Some people were never taught to think for themselves or how to navigate real life. Some people were never taught to distinguish between wants and needs or fantasies and obtainable goals. And everyone wants to be a special snowflake.

ETA: "The discussion of this topic is made more difficult by the following factors:" was supposed to be the top line. In most of my discussions and experiences with any sort of magic(k), it has come down to people who want more fantasy and mystery and speshulness in their lives because they couldn't hack it otherwise . . . and people who just picked it up and used it as they would any other tool, the ability to read, the ability to make one's own clothing, etc . . . and incorporated it into their lives as something they could use to meet any challenge.

Don't know if that makes sense. You've got the crazy fucks who think if they cast a circle enough times, unicorns will grant their wishes and you've got the intelligent, curious sort who go around looking at anything remotely interesting and assimilate it.

Part of the problem is that the first group outnumbers the second and turns everything into a fucking circus.

[minuspace]

Some people need a crutch. Some people were never taught to think for themselves or how to navigate real life. Some people were never taught to distinguish between wants and needs or fantasies and obtainable goals. And everyone wants to be a special snowflake.

ETA: "The discussion of this topic is made more difficult by the following factors:" was supposed to be the top line. In most of my discussions and experiences with any sort of magic(k), it has come down to people who want more fantasy and mystery and speshulness in their lives because they couldn't hack it otherwise . . . and people who just picked it up and used it as they would any other tool, the ability to read, the ability to make one's own clothing, etc . . . and incorporated it into their lives as something they could use to meet any challenge.

Don't know if that makes sense. You've got the crazy fucks who think if they cast a circle enough times, unicorns will grant their wishes and you've got the intelligent, curious sort who go around looking at anything remotely interesting and assimilate it.

Part of the problem is that the first group outnumbers the second and turns everything into a fucking circus.

The other part is when the later put on a circus to entertain the former...  Although the bread and wine is nice...

[Triple Zero]

By meditation I mean I focus completely on my senses and cease all internal dialogue.

Out here in flyover land, we call that "relaxing".

And, as you say, none of it is magickle.  So why would anyone call it that?

Not only that, by why do people need to self-hypnotize to achieve results that can be achieved through cognizant effort?

I mean, if you have to trick yourself into a certain state of mind, it's probably a sign that you're not really ready to be in that state of mind.

Both of these positions assume that everyone has equal mental facilities and willpower to bring to bear (I think this is because both of you have had very unique life experiences which cultivated extreme individualism, self reliance, quick thinking, and willpower).

And yet, we spend most of our time around here pointing out that a majority of the population simply do not express these traits. Mainly because they are being externally manipulated by culture, distracted, diffused, turned into 'consumers'.

It's good to have the wise dude who's laughing into the storm, crying out "It's Easy, just Do It."

Those dead Zen spags had loads of them, "Stop over complicating things. Just breathe (and notice what's not permanent)."

The mind is buffeted by internal and external forces (I thought Phil Farber's lime-disease story might get that across... he's a god damn "industry professional" and it still took him weeks to notice gradual negative change in his base-line mental state). Most people on this planet don't have the willpower to even notice what's going on internally, much less leverage some control over some of the feedback loops. They're too busy worrying about the power structures/organizations which have co-opted Roger's 5 basic stressors into methods of control.


When you make these comments, you sound like black-belts addressing a group of n00bs. "When he comes at you, you just break his hand, then punch him in the kidney. Simple, see?"

I was going to say something like this.

I need a fuckton of "tricks" to keep myself going on a daily basis and it must be absolutely fucking wonderful for the lucky bastards to whom that shit comes natural. Now I get most of those from various non-occult sources such as GTD which has nothing to do with "magick"--but come to think of it, was denounced and looked down upon by ECH and Rog in pretty much the same manner when it was discussed a while back, in the sense of "if you need that kind of tricks you're weak, who needs a book to tell you what comes natural, it's common sense, just do it, I don't see what's so hard" or whatever.

Of course you wouldn't understand if you never require something extra to "just do" something that everybody seems to be doing effortlessly every day, if all that it ever took you is to put a bit (or a lot) of willpower or some knuckle into it. (you know where that got me?)

I tell you what is fucking magick. "Just do it" is fucking magick. How does that work? How do you "just do" something, huh? Tell me, because it utterly stupefies me, every single moment of the day. How does it work? QUANTUMZ?!

IT'S MAGIC, I DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN SHIT

piss off.

Simple: it tends to be a reliable shortcut.

I mean, you COULD spend ten years learning Japanese, or you could just read the subtitles when you watch "Yojimbo".

Nonsense, the shortcut obviously is to just know Japanese. Only deluded fools and smelly pagans use "subtytles".

By meditation I mean I focus completely on my senses and cease all internal dialogue.

Out here in flyover land, we call that "relaxing".

And, as you say, none of it is magickle.  So why would anyone call it that?

Well that must be fucking nice if you can "just do" that, eh?

Tell me then, why am I taking yoga/meditation classes? Why then, am I after a refresher of three lessons (I've been doing this shit for years, it's just been a while this time) already capable of a deeper relaxation than I was in the year before that when I hadn't been practising, with a noticeable effect in my own stress levels.

But what you're saying is I don't need that shit. I need to "just relax". Sounds great, tell me how to do it, if it's so fucking easy--gosh I must be really stupid if it's really that simple--why then am I paying good money to sit once a week in a quiet, nice smelling room, to have an absolutely adorable old yoga lady slowly talk us through nearly the exact same instructions of sitting, lying down, one posture, and sitting (that's one hour btw)? I mean, it works for me, and it's worth the money,

but apparently it must be a scam, because, apparently I need to "just relax" and I get exactly the same benefit, for free!

How do you do that? explain? how does it work, because I've tried this "relax" in the years I didn't practice yoga and it doesn't quite work. I must be missing something really obvious, if it's "just" that simple. How does it work? Explain to me how to do it.

IT'S MAGIC I DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN SHIT

[East Coast Hustle]

Dude, you're getting way too worked up about this. You need to relax.