Making Occult Studies more Accessible

[AFK]

I dunno, that assumes that someone like Trip is "satisfied with a life of complacency and security", and I'm not sure if that is accurate.  He can obviously speak to that himself.

For me it just comes down to "different strokes for different folks".  Some people can "just relax".  I tend to be one of those people, though it doesn't come from being challenged by, nor even thinking about, imminent death or danger.

But I definitely see the benefit for others to use some kind of mental exercise or regimen to condition themselves to a place where they can be more at peace.  And I think this has some relation to the BIP.  I see it as a sort of mini-jailbreak.  Or maybe it's more of a regular stroll around the prison grounds.

Recognizing that there seem to be some bars, shrapnel, something that can make things a little cloudy or fuzzy from time to time.  And that it is helpful to go through an exercise that pushes them away for a little while, or at least, arrests their negative or confounding influence. 

I'm not really the meditating or yoga type, but I have tried it a couple of times.  Just sitting, kind of emptying my mind, existing in silence, and then actively trying to quiet the mind.  I can definitely see how that is helpful. 

More often than not, just throwing in a loud metal cd helps be quiet my brain. 

Anyway, I'm kind of meandering all over the place but again I think it is simply one of those "different strokes" things when it comes to this subject matter. 

[Scribbly]

I'd like to expound on the "learning the language versus reading the subtitles" analogy, because I feel it's applicable to this line of conversation as a whole. Sure, you can read the subtitles and sort of get the gist of what's going on, but if you want to UNDERSTAND what's going on you need to learn the language and all of the subtleties and nuance contained within it. And there's a whole lot more value in that than in taking some cheapshit shortcut.

What gives myself (and Roger, though I'm not speaking for him) some MAGICAL ability to just fucking RELAX and not sweat the small shit, or to be confident in the ability to favorably change a situation via application of will, isn't some innate ability or mutant superpower, it's the perspective brought on by being willing to not be satisfied with a life of complacency and security.

When's the last time you did something dangerous?

Not like "I rode my bike in traffic without a helmet" dangerous. Like "I found myself in some fucked-up doll factory in a Panamanian jungle" dangerous. "I realized I was in the middle of a drug deal with methed-out machine gun-toting Yakuza lackeys" dangerous. "I collect debts for a 'corrupt' judge" dangerous.

This isn't some internet tough guy screed. I'm just pointing out that once you get comfortable with the idea that THIS SHIT MIGHT KILL YOU, the fact that someone on the internet is condescending to you suddenly stops being a reason to lose your shit. It's easy to "just relax" and "just do it" when you live a life that forces you to savor the opportunity to relax and makes being able to just do it less a magical mental trick and more a necessity for survival. But if all you eve do is find a comfortable routine and stick to it because it gets you through the day, what the fuck do you expect to happen when something upsets your routine? And whose fault do you think it is? I'll tell you, it's not the fault of whatever bunged up your trip to the supermarket, it's fucking YOU for thinking your comfortable daily routine is actually IMPORTANT or NECESSARY.

And frankly, if you're trying to trick yourself into that relaxed and confident mental state by paying a yoga teacher or NLPing yourself all day, you're missing the fucking point. Get off of your comfortable suburban ass and go LIVE LIFE.

If this sounds condescending and assholish to you, that doesn't make it wrong it just means you're probably one of the people it pertains to. Or, y'know, alternately I'm some fucking SUPERIOR BEING and you can PM me for the address to which my monthly tribute can be sent. But that's bullshit and we all know it, so go fucking EARN your relaxation and stop paying for false slack.

You do sound condescending and assholish. Not just in this post, but pretty much every post ITT.

Your basic position seems to be that you need to earn the right to be comfortable in your skin. You've done it through violence and danger, good for you. Other people do it by reminding themselves that it is okay to relax in other ways; including the ways you've targeted as being worthless.

What makes your way better than any other way? Why do your experiences have more validity than other people's?

From where I'm standing, you are no better than the gurus you are railing against except that you aren't trying to get anyone's money. It is the same basic end point, but the route some people take to get there requires less guns and more introspection.

Who cares about the route you choose to get somewhere, when it is the destination that is important?

[Cramulus]

But since you see fit to call me a liar, then you can go fuck yourself.

wait, what? where did I call you a liar??
we're discussing ideas, there's no reason to make this personal


ANYWAY

I thought there was some meat in LHX's OP. Nobody in this thread is saying they believe in mystical supernatural shite. LHX expressed interest in talking about "magic without the bullshit" - ie the stuff that could be carted away from the occult and discussed separately. LHX outlined a few of the ways of separating the useful parts from the non-useful parts. To me, the summary of the OP was "Isn't it frustrating that when we talk about esoteric stuff, morons think we're talking about something supernatural?" LHX's post was an attack on the "supernatural" elements of the discussion, so I'm still a little confused as to why it's bullshit?


To me, mythology is a good analogy for what we're talking about. We don't believe in Greek Gods, but there's still some value in mythology.

If you approach myth from a religious point of view (analogous to a True Believer in the occult), and the lesson you take from Greek Mythology is that you need to make these sacrifices to the gods all the time or fate will fuck you up, you're a spag and you totally missed the point.

Similarly, if you insist there's no value in myth, and anybody that's trying to discuss myth is wasting their time and deluding themselves, I think you're missing the point as well.

[East Coast Hustle]

I'd like to expound on the "learning the language versus reading the subtitles" analogy, because I feel it's applicable to this line of conversation as a whole. Sure, you can read the subtitles and sort of get the gist of what's going on, but if you want to UNDERSTAND what's going on you need to learn the language and all of the subtleties and nuance contained within it. And there's a whole lot more value in that than in taking some cheapshit shortcut.

What gives myself (and Roger, though I'm not speaking for him) some MAGICAL ability to just fucking RELAX and not sweat the small shit, or to be confident in the ability to favorably change a situation via application of will, isn't some innate ability or mutant superpower, it's the perspective brought on by being willing to not be satisfied with a life of complacency and security.

When's the last time you did something dangerous?

Not like "I rode my bike in traffic without a helmet" dangerous. Like "I found myself in some fucked-up doll factory in a Panamanian jungle" dangerous. "I realized I was in the middle of a drug deal with methed-out machine gun-toting Yakuza lackeys" dangerous. "I collect debts for a 'corrupt' judge" dangerous.

This isn't some internet tough guy screed. I'm just pointing out that once you get comfortable with the idea that THIS SHIT MIGHT KILL YOU, the fact that someone on the internet is condescending to you suddenly stops being a reason to lose your shit. It's easy to "just relax" and "just do it" when you live a life that forces you to savor the opportunity to relax and makes being able to just do it less a magical mental trick and more a necessity for survival. But if all you eve do is find a comfortable routine and stick to it because it gets you through the day, what the fuck do you expect to happen when something upsets your routine? And whose fault do you think it is? I'll tell you, it's not the fault of whatever bunged up your trip to the supermarket, it's fucking YOU for thinking your comfortable daily routine is actually IMPORTANT or NECESSARY.

And frankly, if you're trying to trick yourself into that relaxed and confident mental state by paying a yoga teacher or NLPing yourself all day, you're missing the fucking point. Get off of your comfortable suburban ass and go LIVE LIFE.

If this sounds condescending and assholish to you, that doesn't make it wrong it just means you're probably one of the people it pertains to. Or, y'know, alternately I'm some fucking SUPERIOR BEING and you can PM me for the address to which my monthly tribute can be sent. But that's bullshit and we all know it, so go fucking EARN your relaxation and stop paying for false slack.

You do sound condescending and assholish. Not just in this post, but pretty much every post ITT.

Your basic position seems to be that you need to earn the right to be comfortable in your skin. You've done it through violence and danger, good for you. Other people do it by reminding themselves that it is okay to relax in other ways; including the ways you've targeted as being worthless.

What makes your way better than any other way? Why do your experiences have more validity than other people's?

From where I'm standing, you are no better than the gurus you are railing against except that you aren't trying to get anyone's money. It is the same basic end point, but the route some people take to get there requires less guns and more introspection.

Who cares about the route you choose to get somewhere, when it is the destination that is important?

Last time I checked, all of life was a journey, not a destination. If you've stopped along the way, well, good for you but don't expect me to respect that. It's exactly the sort of complacency I was referring to. I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't be doing. Frankly, I don't give much of a fuck. I'm just explaining why using "occult" methods to reach a place of relaxation and confidence is false slack and why I personally have less than zero respect for it.

[East Coast Hustle]

But since you see fit to call me a liar, then you can go fuck yourself.

wait, what? where did I call you a liar??
we're discussing ideas, there's no reason to make this personal


ANYWAY

I thought there was some meat in LHX's OP. Nobody in this thread is saying they believe in mystical supernatural shite. LHX expressed interest in talking about "magic without the bullshit" - ie the stuff that could be carted away from the occult and discussed separately. LHX outlined a few of the ways of separating the useful parts from the non-useful parts. To me, the summary of the OP was "Isn't it frustrating that when we talk about esoteric stuff, morons think we're talking about something supernatural?" LHX's post was an attack on the "supernatural" elements of the discussion, so I'm still a little confused as to why it's bullshit?


To me, mythology is a good analogy for what we're talking about. We don't believe in Greek Gods, but there's still some value in mythology.

If you approach myth from a religious point of view (analogous to a True Believer in the occult), and the lesson you take from Greek Mythology is that you need to make these sacrifices to the gods all the time or fate will fuck you up, you're a spag and you totally missed the point.

Similarly, if you insist there's no value in myth, and anybody that's trying to discuss myth is wasting their time and deluding themselves, I think you're missing the point as well.

Explain what the value in myth is and why that same value can't be extracted from the empirical world.

[Cramulus]

something something golden apple something

[Scribbly]

I'd like to expound on the "learning the language versus reading the subtitles" analogy, because I feel it's applicable to this line of conversation as a whole. Sure, you can read the subtitles and sort of get the gist of what's going on, but if you want to UNDERSTAND what's going on you need to learn the language and all of the subtleties and nuance contained within it. And there's a whole lot more value in that than in taking some cheapshit shortcut.

What gives myself (and Roger, though I'm not speaking for him) some MAGICAL ability to just fucking RELAX and not sweat the small shit, or to be confident in the ability to favorably change a situation via application of will, isn't some innate ability or mutant superpower, it's the perspective brought on by being willing to not be satisfied with a life of complacency and security.

When's the last time you did something dangerous?

Not like "I rode my bike in traffic without a helmet" dangerous. Like "I found myself in some fucked-up doll factory in a Panamanian jungle" dangerous. "I realized I was in the middle of a drug deal with methed-out machine gun-toting Yakuza lackeys" dangerous. "I collect debts for a 'corrupt' judge" dangerous.

This isn't some internet tough guy screed. I'm just pointing out that once you get comfortable with the idea that THIS SHIT MIGHT KILL YOU, the fact that someone on the internet is condescending to you suddenly stops being a reason to lose your shit. It's easy to "just relax" and "just do it" when you live a life that forces you to savor the opportunity to relax and makes being able to just do it less a magical mental trick and more a necessity for survival. But if all you eve do is find a comfortable routine and stick to it because it gets you through the day, what the fuck do you expect to happen when something upsets your routine? And whose fault do you think it is? I'll tell you, it's not the fault of whatever bunged up your trip to the supermarket, it's fucking YOU for thinking your comfortable daily routine is actually IMPORTANT or NECESSARY.

And frankly, if you're trying to trick yourself into that relaxed and confident mental state by paying a yoga teacher or NLPing yourself all day, you're missing the fucking point. Get off of your comfortable suburban ass and go LIVE LIFE.

If this sounds condescending and assholish to you, that doesn't make it wrong it just means you're probably one of the people it pertains to. Or, y'know, alternately I'm some fucking SUPERIOR BEING and you can PM me for the address to which my monthly tribute can be sent. But that's bullshit and we all know it, so go fucking EARN your relaxation and stop paying for false slack.

You do sound condescending and assholish. Not just in this post, but pretty much every post ITT.

Your basic position seems to be that you need to earn the right to be comfortable in your skin. You've done it through violence and danger, good for you. Other people do it by reminding themselves that it is okay to relax in other ways; including the ways you've targeted as being worthless.

What makes your way better than any other way? Why do your experiences have more validity than other people's?

From where I'm standing, you are no better than the gurus you are railing against except that you aren't trying to get anyone's money. It is the same basic end point, but the route some people take to get there requires less guns and more introspection.

Who cares about the route you choose to get somewhere, when it is the destination that is important?

Last time I checked, all of life was a journey, not a destination. If you've stopped along the way, well, good for you but don't expect me to respect that. It's exactly the sort of complacency I was referring to. I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't be doing. Frankly, I don't give much of a fuck. I'm just explaining why using "occult" methods to reach a place of relaxation and confidence is false slack and why I personally have less than zero respect for it.

Right, so now the language is getting in the way.

The 'destination' is being comfortable in your skin and not caring if your day to day routine is getting disrupted; you are saying that this is what you've gained from your experiences, and your post above certainly made it sound like you are, in fact, saying other people 'should' do just that. If we're going to keep using this clumsy metaphor, then life may well be a journey, the attitude you take through it is the vehicle you use to make it. Does that clear anything up? You don't need to be complacent in this headspace any more than you are complacent now.

As for the butthurt thing, I don't really have a horse in this race. I don't believe in the occult, but I do believe that it is helpful to try and maintain a respectful tone. While I'm at it I'd like a pony and a million dollars.

[AFK]

Explain what the value in myth is and why that same value can't be extracted from the empirical world.

I would say because myth might be more helpful in triggering ideas and revelations in some people as opposed to empirical knowledge.  Indeed, if you aren't getting absorbed into the actual religion of a myth, the myth really is just a re framing of the empirical world.  Cram points out the obvious example. 

[LMNO]

Ok, another metaphor:

You could do this:

Factor x4 – 2x2 – 8.
(x – 3)4 + 2(x – 3)2 – 8
    = ((x – 3)2)2 + 2(x – 3)2 – 8
    = y2 + 2y – 8
    = (y + 4)(y – 2)
    = ((x – 3)2 + 4)((x – 3)2 – 2)
    = ((x2 – 6x + 9) + 4)((x2 – 6x + 9) – 2)
    = (x2 – 6x + 13)(x2 – 6x + 7)

(x – 3)4 + 2(x – 3)2 – 8 = (x2 – 6x + 13)(x2 – 6x + 7)



Or you could use the quadratic equation.


They both give you the right answer, but you have a lot more chance of fucking it up the first way.

Now, I'm sure you're going to say that you see it as exactly the opposite; that your way is the quadratic, and the other way is the factoring, but there you go.  A matter of perspective.

Let's put it this way: I do not believe in the woo-woo mystik energiez or gods or anything like that.  You should know this by now.  But I have found that if I do X with my body/environment, then I get Y mental result.  Then I see that a hell of a lot of people, for many, many years, have seen the same result.  Unfortunately, they have attached a lot of woo-woo to it. 

So if we look at something, and strip out the woo-woo, and it still works, why would you want to dismiss it?

[East Coast Hustle]

I dunno, that assumes that someone like Trip is "satisfied with a life of complacency and security", and I'm not sure if that is accurate.  He can obviously speak to that himself.

For me it just comes down to "different strokes for different folks".  Some people can "just relax".  I tend to be one of those people, though it doesn't come from being challenged by, nor even thinking about, imminent death or danger.

But I definitely see the benefit for others to use some kind of mental exercise or regimen to condition themselves to a place where they can be more at peace.  And I think this has some relation to the BIP.  I see it as a sort of mini-jailbreak.  Or maybe it's more of a regular stroll around the prison grounds.

Recognizing that there seem to be some bars, shrapnel, something that can make things a little cloudy or fuzzy from time to time.  And that it is helpful to go through an exercise that pushes them away for a little while, or at least, arrests their negative or confounding influence. 

I'm not really the meditating or yoga type, but I have tried it a couple of times.  Just sitting, kind of emptying my mind, existing in silence, and then actively trying to quiet the mind.  I can definitely see how that is helpful. 

More often than not, just throwing in a loud metal cd helps be quiet my brain. 

Anyway, I'm kind of meandering all over the place but again I think it is simply one of those "different strokes" things when it comes to this subject matter. 

I don't disagree with you, necessarily. I was using examples from myself and Roger because we were the ones being held up as some sort of example, but I wasn't trying to imply that was the only way to find real slack. The point I was trying to make was that a large part of the value of finding that slack lies in the journey (in whatever form someone chooses to manifest it in) and that using shortcuts to subvert that was a way to miss that inherent value. That's what I meant by "if you have to trick yourself into that state of mind, you may not be ready for that state of mind."

[East Coast Hustle]

Ok, another metaphor:

You could do this:

Factor x4 – 2x2 – 8.
(x – 3)4 + 2(x – 3)2 – 8
    = ((x – 3)2)2 + 2(x – 3)2 – 8
    = y2 + 2y – 8
    = (y + 4)(y – 2)
    = ((x – 3)2 + 4)((x – 3)2 – 2)
    = ((x2 – 6x + 9) + 4)((x2 – 6x + 9) – 2)
    = (x2 – 6x + 13)(x2 – 6x + 7)

(x – 3)4 + 2(x – 3)2 – 8 = (x2 – 6x + 13)(x2 – 6x + 7)



Or you could use the quadratic equation.


They both give you the right answer, but you have a lot more chance of fucking it up the first way.

Now, I'm sure you're going to say that you see it as exactly the opposite; that your way is the quadratic, and the other way is the factoring, but there you go.  A matter of perspective.

Let's put it this way: I do not believe in the woo-woo mystik energiez or gods or anything like that.  You should know this by now.  But I have found that if I do X with my body/environment, then I get Y mental result.  Then I see that a hell of a lot of people, for many, many years, have seen the same result.  Unfortunately, they have attached a lot of woo-woo to it. 

So if we look at something, and strip out the woo-woo, and it still works, why would you want to dismiss it?

Actually I would say that I'd prefer to use the first, seemingly more complex equation, and that the "value" I'm talking about lies in reaching a place where you can do that longer equation without worrying about fucking it up instead of finding a shortcut.

Of course, life is not math so I'm not entirely convinced of the worth of the analogy. Life doesn't have right or wrong answers, and if it does the wrong answers are sometimes equally as valuable as the right ones, maybe sometimes even more so.

[LMNO]

Regardless of our individual perspectives on this, I appreciate your last post a lot; it's less dismissive and engages the subject more actively.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Unfortunately, they have attached a lot of woo-woo to it. 

And that's my problem with the whole thing.  Yoga has a beneficial effect on many people.  I don't think anyone is arguing that.  There are good reasons why this benefit occurs.  So why call it "occult" or "magick"?  It's unnecessary, and it's just plain incorrect.  Same thing goes with meditation, etc.  If you feel you HAVE to call it magickle for it to work, then you probably have a particular problem that's bigger than your need to relax.

[Freeky]

Roger:  the assumption is that detached thinking will get you closer to the truth.  The challenge is to think about whether it makes sense to say that the truth is not necessarily arrived at by objective, rational and detached thought.  It's kinda like how the romantics believed in the supremacy of feeling and intuition over rationality.

The romantics also believed if you bled a sick person half to death it would make them better.

So, you know.  Rationality > feelings in certain situations.

This isn't the time to bring up the legitimate medical uses for leeches, is it?

 

Leeches have their place.  But would you recommend them to someone whoh has the flu?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I have this big fucking hammer.  It has many legitimate uses.

Sawing a board in half isn't one of them.

Just saying.

TGRR,
Murdering metaphors with one punch.