What is this section about (n00bs read this!)

[AFK]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I see clever defined thusly: -mentally bright; having sharp or quick intelligence; able.

I hope one wouldn't argue that the BIP authors and their writings lacked mental brightness and sharp/quick intelligence.

[LMNO]

We would kill a whole buncha motherfuckers.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I see clever defined thusly: -mentally bright; having sharp or quick intelligence; able.

I hope one wouldn't argue that the BIP authors and their writings lacked mental brightness and sharp/quick intelligence.

Not at all!!!!!

I only meant that the points aren't made in a clever way (clever as in "OH! Heck I didn't see that coming!" not as in "Dur, I are not clever"). They are made in a much more direct way... the BiP states what it states, there's no song, no dance, no package with pretty wrapping... There simply is the BiP.

In my perception anyway.

[Janvier]

First of all let me state that I think it's wonderful a project like this got off the ground, and I love the concept of another good addition to Discordian gospel. I'll also just give the caveat that what I'm about to say are just how BIP looks to me.

That said, I really dislike most of it for two main reasons. Of course, this isn't to say I didn't find any enjoyable or interesting thoughts in it, but it would need a lot of work for me to consider it to be close to the level of the PD.

The first reason for which I dislike BIP is rhetorical: it has terrible ethical appeal. The book constantly tells the me that I am in a prison, that The Machine is controlling me, that I needs to cut himself free and learn. Moreover, everywhere in your writing it is implied that somehow you know more about the big picture than any random person who picks up a copy. One shouldn't make such a supposition, especially not to their reader who they want to engage. Also, if you're going to put words in a reader's mouth make pretty damn sure he actually feels the way you say he feels.

Second, I feel the message is off. Mal-2 would be rolling in his grave if he saw Discordianism could produce something so downbeat. The reason I became a Discordianist and not for example a Christian is that Christianity tells me that if I don't conform to their rules something is wrong with me. It seems to me as if you say that if I don't mind working for The Machine, living in it or accepting it, something is wrong with me. The PD taught me things by making me think in new ways, and it encourages people finding their own truths. BIP tried to tell me what to think. I'm all for helping people grow mentally, but I frown at the use of such depressive imagery that makes people unhappy about who they are now so they are motivated to change.

[Triple Zero]

ok let's go over this once more

- the BIP is not intended to convince everybody or appeal to any random person, but has a specific target audience, those who "need" or "can use" it at that moment.
- it is definitely not supposed to be the only discordian text.
- we are not "doing discordianism" to please Mal-2.

but i dont think it would even help if we were to write that in the intro to the BIP pamphlet.

now, for your other statements, which are actually a lot more interesting than BAWWWing about how you don't like the wrapping of the package:

The reason I became a Discordianist and not for example a Christian is that Christianity tells me that if I don't conform to their rules something is wrong with me. It seems to me as if you say that if I don't mind working for The Machine, living in it or accepting it, something is wrong with me. The PD taught me things by making me think in new ways, and it encourages people finding their own truths.

if the PD didn't tell you there's something wrong with you, read it again

BIP tried to tell me what to think.

and so did the PD, it's just that it did it all fluffy and happy and it already happened once

I'm all for helping people grow mentally, but I frown at the use of such depressive imagery that makes people unhappy about who they are now so they are motivated to change.

lolwhut?

"such depressive imagery"

suddenly when chaos is no longer "nice" and "funny", you start FROWNING?

didn't you know that eris is a fucking mean bitch?

[Janvier]

ok let's go over this once more

- the BIP is not intended to convince everybody or appeal to any random person, but has a specific target audience, those who "need" or "can use" it at that moment.

I suppose you are right and I am neither. I just find it hard to imagine you could break out of a mental prison when you keep confronting yourself with how pervasive it is.

- we are not "doing discordianism" to please Mal-2.

Neither am I obviously, but I certainly do feel that he got Discordianism about just right. I don't have that feeling with BIP.

if the PD didn't tell you there's something wrong with you, read it again

I disagree. The PD told me that it's wrong to take anything too seriously. BIP takes itself too seriously.

lolwhut?

"such depressive imagery"

suddenly when chaos is no longer "nice" and "funny", you start FROWNING?

didn't you know that eris is a fucking mean bitch?

She is, but she has never made me feel inadequate.

[AFK]

The first reason for which I dislike BIP is rhetorical: it has terrible ethical appeal. The book constantly tells the me that I am in a prison, that The Machine is controlling me, that I needs to cut himself free and learn. Moreover, everywhere in your writing it is implied that somehow you know more about the big picture than any random person who picks up a copy. One shouldn't make such a supposition, especially not to their reader who they want to engage. Also, if you're going to put words in a reader's mouth make pretty damn sure he actually feels the way you say he feels.

You've got it all wrong.  It's not that we "know more" it's that we are "more aware" that there IS a bigger picture.  We don't pretend to know what that big picture looks like and if you read the BIP again you will see where we say that in several places.  And as 000 said, there is a specific kind of person the BIP is supposed to appeal to.  Think of it as a Starbucks Pebble test of sorts.  If someone picks it up, reads it, and just thinks it's a preachy, downer, then they clearly need to read it again when they are ready to understand what we are ACTUALLY talking about.  Just like your Hot Topic fan-bois who read the PD thinking it's just a bunch of nyuks needs to check THEIR head. 

Second, I feel the message is off. Mal-2 would be rolling in his grave if he saw Discordianism could produce something so downbeat. The reason I became a Discordianist and not for example a Christian is that Christianity tells me that if I don't conform to their rules something is wrong with me. It seems to me as if you say that if I don't mind working for The Machine, living in it or accepting it, something is wrong with me. The PD taught me things by making me think in new ways, and it encourages people finding their own truths. BIP tried to tell me what to think. I'm all for helping people grow mentally, but I frown at the use of such depressive imagery that makes people unhappy about who they are now so they are motivated to change.

I honestly don't give a flying fuck what Mal-2 would think about it.  In the PD it is iterated several times that he set this whole thing up for people to take as their own.  And to go off with it as they see fit.  We are just one strain of Discordian thought, which disagrees with other strains, but that doesn't mean we are wrong.  The BIP is meant to be that cold water you slap on your face after a long night of partying.  To sort of wake you up.  It was never our intention to hold hands after the fact. 

[Triple Zero]

You've got it all wrong.

Quoted For Motherfucking UNIVERSAL Troof 

I suppose you are right and I am neither. I just find it hard to imagine you could break out of a mental prison when you keep confronting yourself with how pervasive it is.

well you can't break out, that's the point.

the important bit is to become aware of the shape and size of your cell, and try to expand it as far as you like, by breaking bars as you hit them.

it emphasizes how the continous act of breaking out is the important goal to strive for, not the promise of (unattainable) freedom on the "outside".

unless you are seriously determined to become "enlightened"

- we are not "doing discordianism" to please Mal-2.

Neither am I obviously, but I certainly do feel that he got Discordianism about just right. I don't have that feeling with BIP.

and i feel that he was a pothead who got a lot of things very right, but wrote his stuff with other hippies and the corresponding mindset in mind, and there's (thankfully?) not a whole lot of them around anymore these days.

if the PD didn't tell you there's something wrong with you, read it again

I disagree. The PD told me that it's wrong to take anything too seriously. BIP takes itself too seriously.

so the PD did tell you what to think?

also why do you think the BIP pamphlet takes itself too seriously?

suddenly when chaos is no longer "nice" and "funny", you start FROWNING?

didn't you know that eris is a fucking mean bitch?

She is, but she has never made me feel inadequate.

ok, goddess symbolism aside, what do you mean by that statement?

eris, chaos, discord, strife has never made you feel inadequate? have you been paying attention?

the entire *point* of chaos is that you can never view all of it at once. that's where the false order/disorder dichotomy comes from. look at a thing from one angle, it's ordered, look at it from another angle and it's disordered.

see, i would understand that you think the imagery in the BIP pamphlet is kind of gloomy. that's why i said, it's not for everyone. not everybody likes the same stuff. some like the zany dada in the PD, some see this forced randomness as yet another example of order. that makes sense.

but now it seems you are saying that from a "discordian" point of view, the premise of the BIP is "incorrect" because
- it appears too serious to you
- and it makes you feel inadequate

i think that's a bit odd. cause if anything "too serious" and "making you feel inadequate" is false in your version of discordianism .. well i'll just assume that's not the case.

[AFK]

- we are not "doing discordianism" to please Mal-2.

Neither am I obviously, but I certainly do feel that he got Discordianism about just right. I don't have that feeling with BIP.

Then why did he encourage people to become Episkoposes if they felt they had a different interpretation of Discordianism?

if the PD didn't tell you there's something wrong with you, read it again

I disagree. The PD told me that it's wrong to take anything too seriously. BIP takes itself too seriously.

Consider when each were written.  The PD in the 50s, the BIP in the 2006.  I would argue that the situations we find ourselves in 2006 are a bit more serious than tey were in the 50s.  I mean, if you want to sit around and tell jokes and talk about FNORDS and think that's actually going to accomplish anything, knock yourself out.  

[barumunk]

if the PD didn't tell you there's something wrong with you, read it again

I disagree. The PD told me that it's wrong to take anything too seriously. BIP takes itself too seriously.

Well the PD did say that if you can see the machine for what it is, and decide to go about your business anyway then you are a fucking Greyface! ... um sounds like telling someone there's something wrong with them if you ask me.

Its quite strange, I'm relatively new here too, and tis weird how not so long ago I had very similar criticisms of teh BIP. BUT not anymore. I think its kewl its more like a extra communication device, as apposed to a entity of its own. The BIP (and i dont mean to kiss arse (cus of all teh authors here), but its converted far more of the people I know to discordians than the PD on its own.)

its more of a philosophy/perspective of the how the world seems to work, within the discordian context/framework, which the the PD didnt really deliver. (in a relatively instantly digestive form)


bleah, I'm losing my train of thought again.

Stick around Janvier, maybe you'll come round, as I did.

[Triple Zero]

Stick around Janvier, maybe you'll come round, as I did.

AND BECOME ONE OF UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS

[AFK]

Honestly, as time goes on the PD, in my opinion, will have less and less impact.  Because the one big mistake Hill and Thornley made when they put the PD together is in how then constructed their message.  Obvioulsy, the philosophies are timeless, but the way they framed it isn't necessarily so.  The 50s humor just doesn't translate very well in 2000.  Oh sure, some people will still get it, but many will be instantly turned off by it.  Think of anyone who hates the Three Stooges and that kind of old-school slapstick humor.  They will wrinkle their noses at the PD and not bother with it.  

This was one of the reasons for the BIP.  An attempt to reach some younger cats who aren't going to get into the old-thyme humor.  

[barumunk]

Honestly, as time goes on the PD, in my opinion, will have less and less impact.  Because the one big mistake Hill and Thornley made when they put the PD together is in how then constructed their message.  Obvioulsy, the philosophies are timeless, but the way they framed it isn't necessarily so.  The 50s humor just doesn't translate very well in 2000.  Oh sure, some people will still get it, but many will be instantly turned off by it.  Think of anyone who hates the Three Stooges and that kind of old-school slapstick humor.  They will wrinkle their noses at the PD and not bother with it. 

This was one of the reasons for the BIP.  An attempt to reach some younger cats who aren't going to get into the old-thyme humor. 

And like I said earlier, it IS working.
Incidentally more so in Emo groups, acts more like frikken wildfire.
... but hey, the more the merrier.

Stick around Janvier, maybe you'll come round, as I did.

AND BECOME ONE OF UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS

hahaha mother fucking zombie lords!! 

[Janvier]

Pff, so much to respond to... 

You've got it all wrong.

Quoted For Motherfucking UNIVERSAL Troof 

I suppose you are right and I am neither. I just find it hard to imagine you could break out of a mental prison when you keep confronting yourself with how pervasive it is.

well you can't break out, that's the point.

the important bit is to become aware of the shape and size of your cell, and try to expand it as far as you like, by breaking bars as you hit them.

it emphasizes how the continous act of breaking out is the important goal to strive for, not the promise of (unattainable) freedom on the "outside".

unless you are seriously determined to become "enlightened"

Why is it important to strive to break out? I really don't see it as a prison. Rather, I see it as a grid of reference points I use to make sense (or nonsense) of my universe. I don't want it gone, or at least not until I'm done having fun. Obviously I can change my grid as I see fit, expand it to encompass more perspectives, and I like that. Perhaps I should reread BIP, but it gave me a very negative impression of the prison.

- we are not "doing discordianism" to please Mal-2.

Neither am I obviously, but I certainly do feel that he got Discordianism about just right. I don't have that feeling with BIP.

and i feel that he was a pothead who got a lot of things very right, but wrote his stuff with other hippies and the corresponding mindset in mind, and there's (thankfully?) not a whole lot of them around anymore these days.

Heh, I'm a pothead too, and though I don't like hippies I am actually quite fond of that mindset.

if the PD didn't tell you there's something wrong with you, read it again

I disagree. The PD told me that it's wrong to take anything too seriously. BIP takes itself too seriously.

so the PD did tell you what to think?

also why do you think the BIP pamphlet takes itself too seriously?

In a sense, the PD did. However, since the message is not to take anything seriously, the message itself isn't overly serious. I felt the BIP pamphlet takes itself too seriously because it doesn't offer the same. It says "this is where you are, this is what you should do, full stop".

suddenly when chaos is no longer "nice" and "funny", you start FROWNING?

didn't you know that eris is a fucking mean bitch?

She is, but she has never made me feel inadequate.

ok, goddess symbolism aside, what do you mean by that statement?

eris, chaos, discord, strife has never made you feel inadequate? have you been paying attention?

the entire *point* of chaos is that you can never view all of it at once. that's where the false order/disorder dichotomy comes from. look at a thing from one angle, it's ordered, look at it from another angle and it's disordered.

Why would I feel inadequate for not being able to view all of chaos at once?

see, i would understand that you think the imagery in the BIP pamphlet is kind of gloomy. that's why i said, it's not for everyone. not everybody likes the same stuff. some like the zany dada in the PD, some see this forced randomness as yet another example of order. that makes sense.

but now it seems you are saying that from a "discordian" point of view, the premise of the BIP is "incorrect" because
- it appears too serious to you
- and it makes you feel inadequate

i think that's a bit odd. cause if anything "too serious" and "making you feel inadequate" is false in your version of discordianism .. well i'll just assume that's not the case.

You're certainly right about this, it's not false and reading my post again I understand . However, I don't want to take myself too seriously or feel inadequate, and I wouldn't want to encourage those things in other people.

[Janvier]

Honestly, as time goes on the PD, in my opinion, will have less and less impact.  Because the one big mistake Hill and Thornley made when they put the PD together is in how then constructed their message.  Obvioulsy, the philosophies are timeless, but the way they framed it isn't necessarily so.  The 50s humor just doesn't translate very well in 2000.  Oh sure, some people will still get it, but many will be instantly turned off by it.  Think of anyone who hates the Three Stooges and that kind of old-school slapstick humor.  They will wrinkle their noses at the PD and not bother with it. 

This was one of the reasons for the BIP.  An attempt to reach some younger cats who aren't going to get into the old-thyme humor.

I agree with you, though I personally had no problems with the humor. However, BIP has a message that I feel is substantially different than the one in the PD. It's a nice read, but I don't think it can be the updated PD. I understand you aren't going for that either, but it'd be a pity IMO if the ideas of the PD would be lost.