Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams

[Triple Zero]

that's not to say that what they did was stupid, or made up or artificial. they happened to notice that the classic 78 card tarot and the qabalah went together rather nicely. it seemed that putting the two together aided in the use of each other. appreciating qabbalistic doctrines is easier when you have a nice set of colorful symbols to play around with and tarot is easier to use when you have a grasp of the underlying tree of life structure. otherwise you're trying to remember 78 different cards, each with it's own set of info, rather than being able to work out the info from it's relation to the tree of life.

you know these things rather well, eh Mang?

because, as i mentioned a few times before i'm still trying to wrestle myself through that book that--i think it was--Daniel linked on EB&G ages ago, a PDF called "The Mystical Qabalah".
at the end of each chapter where they describe one of the sephirot they also give a short explanation of the four suits of Tarot cards that correspond to that particular number/Sephirot.
so this was when i would get out my (rider-waites*) deck of cards, and i would look at the pictures and try to remember what other sources told me about the meaning of the cards, and try to sort of sort it all out and see how it corresponds.

well that was all nice and interesting, and they all--sort of--corresponded to what the Sephirot was about, on the different aspects of the suits, UNTIL i got to the sixes, Tiphereth. that was just plain off:

- the six of swords, called in the PDF "Lord of Earned Success", success achieved after struggle (probably referring to the resurrection element in tiphareth?). but that is not what the picture says, nor what these websites told me. these people in the boat are not travelling home after having earned their success through struggle. they are sad, they are in the middle of their struggle, perhaps listless, and they are *maybe* heading towards something better, and leaving the bad struggle stuff behind.
- the six of pentacles, called in the PDF "Lord of Material Success" or power in equilibrium (again, this makes sense from the Tiphareth point of view), but this one is even further from the depiction on the card, or the meanings i've read about so far from other sources. the card is about a man deciding who gets what. somehow the man with the scales gets to decide, is that not much closer to the justice-aspect of geburah? ok, i admit, the standing man with the scales is obviously the lord of the material coins he's handing out. but the card (seems to me) is not about the material success this man has, having acquired all this wealth, but that he is the one deciding where it goes and where it doesn't (hence the scales)

ok, now that i wrote it down the correspondences seem a littlebit less far off than when the first time i read them, but still .. i'm a littlebit disappointed actually, i thought the qabalah and tree of life would be a useful map for the tarot cards, and vice-versa of course, but, well, as soon as it stops corresponding, the whole idea kind of falls apart and they become two systems, that are perhaps related but, not-quite really.

maybe you could shed some light on this, Mang?

also, while you're at it, something they're not entirely clear upon in this book (or maybe it comes later, i'm only at page 146/203), how do the court-cards (page knight queen king) fit in with the tree of life?

[Mangrove]

oooh...nice work there 000.

i think i can answer this in two ways.

firstly, the short way which is: the pattern of the tree of life when used in conjunction of the tarot is a pretty good fit (in the main) but there are a few kinks as it were.

secondly, the long answer - will have to do some thinking/reading and get back to you, so that might take a little bit longer. i haven't looked at my waite deck in a long time as i've pretty much been using the thoth exclusively. just off the top of my head though, i know that crowley's 'six of swords' imagery is far more consonant with the qabalah framework than waite's.

back soon(ish)

mang'

[Triple Zero]

nice work? you mean, because i read the qabalah and think critically about it?

also, yes i thought it might have been a thoth/waite discrepancy, but since "the mystical qabalah" keeps referring to mr waite all the time, i thought this might not be so ..

otoh, i don't own a thoth deck .. i'll probably buy one some day, but at the moment i don't have the moneys for it.

i should check, however, a while ago i saw a book about tarot written by mr waite in a second hand bookshop .. i forgot if it was the "pictorial key to the tarot", but i think so, price seems to be only slightly less than what is offered on amazon, you think i should get it? (is it any good)

[Mangrove]

nice work? you mean, because i read the qabalah and think critically about it?

also, yes i thought it might have been a thoth/waite discrepancy, but since "the mystical qabalah" keeps referring to mr waite all the time, i thought this might not be so ..

otoh, i don't own a thoth deck .. i'll probably buy one some day, but at the moment i don't have the moneys for it.

i should check, however, a while ago i saw a book about tarot written by mr waite in a second hand bookshop .. i forgot if it was the "pictorial key to the tarot", but i think so, price seems to be only slightly less than what is offered on amazon, you think i should get it? (is it any good)

waite was a golden dawner as was dion fortune, so it's not a surprise that she references his deck a lot. to her credit though, she didn't take the usual snobby attitude of the GD ie: hate crowley simply because he was a big meanie.

waite's deck (as manifested by pamela coleman-smith) was innovative in that it was the first deck to give all the minor arcana complete pictures, rather than just the typical numbers/pips you find in a conventional deck of playing cards.

for some reason, waite took it upon himself to relocate the 'justice' card, something that crowley didn't agree with, so he moved it back. i think the problem with some attributions is owing to the fact that various authors (notably eliphas levi) kept talking about occult blinds and the needs to protect the 'true' order of attributions. complete silliness in why anyone would think that the hebrew alphabet was some deep mystical secret.

with waite, on one hand he's saying: here's how the tarot should be but on the other he's saying: ahh, but i am an adept of a occult order and thus i can't violate my oaths by telling you the secrets. 

i've got waite's pictoral key to the tarot, and like 99% of his writing, it is ponderous, verbose and exceedingly pretentious. the saving grace is that it's a short book. you can usually pick this book up cheaply, so if you don't mind spending the $$s, it won't hurt to pick it up, but i didn't really get much out of it. much rather read either case or crowley in tarot matters.

one occultist i read about said that with regard to waite, if you apply the rule that you should ignore everything he praises and take interest in everything he dismisses or berates, then you're on the right track on how to read his books 

by all accounts, waite was a fairly good scholar but probably the worst communicator. it's not like occult books are full of clarity as it is, and his tortuous writing style doesn't help.

(incidentally, www.mondazzi.com  - cheap thoth decks if you're inclined and they can work out cheap international shipping.)

i'll get back to you on your other points from earlier. probably in PM so we don't completely bore everyone to death...

[LMNO]

Hey! 

Some people are eavesdropping, here.

[Mangrove]

Hey! 

Some people are eavesdropping, here.

eavesdropping??

[Mangrove]

joking aside, i was worried that the diversion into tarot specifics and why a e waite was a doofus might be a distraction from the purpose of the OP.

[LMNO]

You can always ask Cain to spit it into a different forum.

[P3nT4gR4m]

yeah - either that or CC me on your PM too.

[Mangrove]

enough of my ramble.

refine those diagrams!!! 

[Triple Zero]

waite was a golden dawner as was dion fortune, so it's not a surprise that she references his deck a lot. to her credit though, she didn't take the usual snobby attitude of the GD ie: hate crowley simply because he was a big meanie.

well, she mentions crowley a few times in the introduction, but then goes on with using the waite deck for a tarot reference.

and dion fortune = the person who wrote "the mystical qabalah"? because i think any authorship and/or copyright date have been "left out" from that PDF..

i know cause i wanted to check on when it had been written ..
it started right out with some, well, semi-racist comments that made me frown a bit (would have been better if she talked about cultural background instead of genetic makeup), then a while later, talking how you should not repress sexuality as it is an important part of the tree of life/religious experience/etc, only to point out a few sentences later that, just to be clear, homosexuality is an "abomination" and has nothing to do with balanced sexuality ... 
aaaaanyway, i'm real good at ignoring such stuff, and make the best of the other bits in this book, which is chockfull of mystical correspondences goodness, which are always nice to read.
those few missteps, i'll just explain them to "different times", or some such.

for some reason, waite took it upon himself to relocate the 'justice' card, something that crowley didn't agree with, so he moved it back. i think the problem with some attributions is owing to the fact that various authors (notably eliphas levi) kept talking about occult blinds and the needs to protect the 'true' order of attributions. complete silliness in why anyone would think that the hebrew alphabet was some deep mystical secret.

so how do we know the crowley order is the "correct" one and waite misplaced Justice on purpose?

i've got waite's pictoral key to the tarot, and like 99% of his writing, it is ponderous, verbose and exceedingly pretentious. the saving grace is that it's a short book. you can usually pick this book up cheaply, so if you don't mind spending the $$s, it won't hurt to pick it up, but i didn't really get much out of it. much rather read either case or crowley in tarot matters.

nah in that case i'll leave it. might be nice to own one day, i thought if it was not all too common i should pick it up before somebody else does, but seeing it goes for almost the same price at amazon, i think i can spend my euros better these days

i'll get back to you on your other points from earlier. probably in PM so we don't completely bore everyone to death...

well you heard the others ... they like lurking

i think there's a good time for the mystical tarot qabalah stuff once in a while


(just as long as no one finds it necessary to come along and ask things "wtf you really believe that stuff" and then continues to jack pull the thread in a complete derailment of the original subject ...  car engines anybody?  )

[LMNO]

so how do we know the crowley order is the "correct" one and waite misplaced Justice on purpose?

Read their interpretations, think about which sephiroth are being connected, see which one makes more sense, use the system you're more comfortable with.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm gonna rattle some beads and toss a little sand.

That will fix everything.

Anyone got an extra chicken's foot?

Goddammit.  I hate you all.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I'm gonna rattle some beads and toss a little sand.

That will fix everything.

Anyone got an extra chicken's foot?

Goddammit.  I hate you all.

Careful there non-believer. I could turn you into a newt using only essential oils and a incense stick.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm gonna rattle some beads and toss a little sand.

That will fix everything.

Anyone got an extra chicken's foot?

Goddammit.  I hate you all.

Careful there non-believer. I could turn you into a newt using only essential oils and a incense stick.

Naw.  Then you'd have to worry about - what do they call it - the "threefold law".

TGRR,
Isn't afraid of Pagans.  Because they're sissies.