Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams

[Doc Howl]

I didn't say it was a GOOD idea, I said it was a SOUND idea. By removing those individuals from the population that have certain genetic makeup, you can force evolutionary processes in a certain direction. That is basic premise of the eugenics idea, without all the extra baggage. And, having gone to a couple genetic classes, its pretty damn sound.

I suppose it is sound if you have unscientific goals such as racism, etc.  From a species-survival/perfectionist point of view, it is unsound as hell, as you are removing trait diversity (and hence survival traits) from the population (sickle-cell anemia would be a good example).

Wait...stop there. I want quotes, because those are outrageous claims.

You mean you didn't even follow the thread?  You just jumped on my head for the fun of it?  Is that what you're saying?  I mean, no skin off my ass if you were, I just want to know the ground rules here.  I have nothing against totally senseless flame wars, so long as I know what's going on.

I guess I should have guessed when you made that ignorant D&D comment.

[Thurnez Isa]

Easy.  Hit google, and look for yourself.  Weapons were our first real tools.

heard that quite a bit too
but I cant remember what from
we're not really good at defending ourselves without tools
and before the end of the ice age the world was a pretty dangerious place

Apparently, we were making adzes first, and we never used weapions as weapons.  Monkeys are just that way, I guess. *snicker*

actually we were probably using rocks, monkeys will throw rocks and sticks if they feel threatened
its hard to say what our primate ancestors were making when they were using objects to make other objects - in other words tools
I dont think we will ever know, but we could probably make assumptions that they would have continued to make weapons for protection from the outside world
its hard to say what the societies were like

[P3nT4gR4m]

Mang - on the subject of divination.

Tarot cards = pictographic representation of metaphysical paradigm (QBLh) I'm sure I don't need to tell most people this.

QBLh gives insight into "stuff". Insight into "stuff" empowers the insightful with a clearer picture of "what's going on".

Understanding this clearer picture would potentially furnish one with an ability to make reliable predictions.

My best theory is that a layman asked a kabbalist "how did you know the sun would rise this morning?" and the Kabbalist said "I used these cards"

"Gotta get me some of those cards" said the layman.

The Kabbalist never felt the need to explain further - he just pocketed the cash and handed the cards over.

[Doc Howl]

Mang - on the subject of divination.

Tarot cards = pictographic representation of metaphysical paradigm (QBLh) I'm sure I don't need to tell most people this.

QBLh gives insight into "stuff". Insight into "stuff" empowers the insightful with a clearer picture of "what's going on".

Understanding this clearer picture would potentially furnish one with an ability to make reliable predictions.

My best theory is that a layman asked a kabbalist "how did you know the sun would rise this morning?" and the Kabbalist said "I used these cards"

"Gotta get me some of those cards" said the layman.

The Kabbalist never felt the need to explain further - he just pocketed the cash and handed the cards over.

It was probably something remarkably close to that.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Doesn't detract from the fact that the cards originally did serve a purpose to kabbalist - think psychological mind map system that's been constantly developed for thousands of years. All the elements of your psyche in pictogram format with an overall structure which can be shuffled around to test different paradigms.

Most monkeys don't get this but many seem intrinsically predisposed to being interested in madgjiquel forces and will buy any mumbo jumbo bullshit you care to sell them. You're never going to get the point across and there's plenty lulz to be had, fucking with their heads.

Nowadays we're playing with memes, nlp, placebo subliminal paranoia. Some of us know kaballa too. We don't talk about it much cos most people were described in the preceding paragraph. Not to say ignorance automatically assumes you're one of teh stoopids but most round here, for obvious reasons, have never looked too deeply into it and when you weigh up the madonnas and tom cruises it's perfectly reasonable to assume a lot of people would just dismis it out of hand.

Can kaballa and other esoteric shit allow you to make a fluffy vermin/pet appear from nowhere? Get real, but does it provide a template to assist navigating the realms of the human mind? Fuck yeah. For some reason recently it's come up. Prolly cos there's a few of us actually know something about it. F'rinstance I am a grand wizard of the holy rota tradition and I can turn you into a newt just by seeing a photograph of you.

[Cain]

To take tarot cards as an example, surely they are outdated for the purposes of symbolism and psychology?

Now, I've looked through a fair few occult and hermetic texts.  The proper ones, with big dribbly candles, chalk on the floor, summoning demons etc etc (I was looking for fictional inspiration, if you must know).  The thing that always stood out is how...psychological it is.  Imbue the person with the importance and meaning of the symbols, then work them up into a hysterical mental state where....[something I haven't figured out as a mental mechanism, not yet] happens and the person can observe changes in how they perceive things and behaviour in general.

But thats really not gonna work today, because the symbols are irrelevant for this era and culture.  Also, symbology has become far more homogenized with the advent of mass media. Kaballah works off the Torah, Tarot works off both popular playing cards in Medieval times as well as newly discovered hermetic and philosophical texts, meaning they were both in keeping with their times.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Actually tarot comes directly from qblh the major arcana applying to each of the 22 paths on the tree. Alchemy also contains a lot of kabbalistic symbolism. It's a kinda medieval synthesis of a lot of systems that were flying around at the time. Lota shit in there that the masons seem to have ended up adopting too. Fact is the psychological model was of use back then and it's still pretty usable now, especially considering the amount of development that has gone on over the centuries.

The main reason science doesn't like it would because, although the results of application of kabbalistic formulae are replicable, they are only so subjectively. So it's passed off as psychosomatic. Of course it fucking is. That's the whole point, your going into your own psychological wiring system and applying a psychosomatic manipulation. Fucking your own mind, if you will. The reason you use a system is because if you just go charging in there you're potentially pressing small delicate buttons with a sledgehammer. - true story

[Cain]

I disagree that the model is applicable.  Most "Christians" are going to believe its evil Satanic shit, and everyone else will find it a snore-fest because of its Christian roots.

But I'm tired, so I refuse to build on my point without sleep.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I'm not trying to sell, just explaining what it is. You're right most people will have fuck all to do with it. Good luck to them, they don't need it. It's not a religion so we don't go door to door. It's something you can potentially fuck your own head right in with. Dangerous in the straightjacket and padded cell sense. Most abuse is harmless tho. Wearing chrystals and coming up with some bullshit affirmation chant. It's doing it properly that carries the mental health warning. 

[Mangrove]

Mang - on the subject of divination.

Tarot cards = pictographic representation of metaphysical paradigm (QBLh) I'm sure I don't need to tell most people this.

QBLh gives insight into "stuff". Insight into "stuff" empowers the insightful with a clearer picture of "what's going on".

Understanding this clearer picture would potentially furnish one with an ability to make reliable predictions.

My best theory is that a layman asked a kabbalist "how did you know the sun would rise this morning?" and the Kabbalist said "I used these cards"

"Gotta get me some of those cards" said the layman.

The Kabbalist never felt the need to explain further - he just pocketed the cash and handed the cards over.

interesting idea...and convenient too but i don't think historically feasible.

from what i can gather, the qabalah and tarot developed independently from each other. there are lots of theories about how the tarot came about, many of them complete occult mythological bollocks. the more sensible scholars are of the mind that the tarot was probably two card games or systems that became merged, which accounts for the combination of the major & minor arcana.

the current 'standard' of tarot containg 78 cards wasn't always the case. medieval decks seemed to contain other major arcana cards, often depicting biblical allegories. it would seem that occultists, probably in the 18th century (and probably french) back projected their kabbalistic understanding upon the tarot decks that were available.

that's not to say that what they did was stupid, or made up or artificial. they happened to notice that the classic 78 card tarot and the qabalah went together rather nicely. it seemed that putting the two together aided in the use of each other. appreciating qabbalistic doctrines is easier when you have a nice set of colorful symbols to play around with and tarot is easier to use when you have a grasp of the underlying tree of life structure. otherwise you're trying to remember 78 different cards, each with it's own set of info, rather than being able to work out the info from it's relation to the tree of life.

[LHX]

they happened to notice that the classic 78 card tarot and the qabalah went together rather nicely. it seemed that putting the two together aided in the use of each other. appreciating qabbalistic doctrines is easier when you have a nice set of colorful symbols to play around with and tarot is easier to use when you have a grasp of the underlying tree of life structure. otherwise you're trying to remember 78 different cards, each with it's own set of info, rather than being able to work out the info from it's relation to the tree of life.

this is the correct surfboard

[LMNO]

To take tarot cards as an example, surely they are outdated for the purposes of symbolism and psychology?

A lot of the superficial stuff is probably outdated, but a deck like Crowly's Thoth deck tried to insert a lot of Archetype symbols & other stuff that seems to run a bit deeper.  For the most part however, the symbology isn't made for a layperson off the street to recognize.  As with anything, the more you study it and make connections, more symbolic triggers will be set off.  Its Law of Fives again, but just because the brain wants to make connections between random stuff doesn't mean it can't be helpful sometimes.

[LHX]

it can be helpful


just like a hammer isnt helpful when you arent using it

[Mangrove]

this might be helpful: (reposted frmo eb&g)

So I can plug 'Tarot and the Journey Of The Hero' by Hajo Banzhaf (Weiser).

Mrs Mang' got me this for the Dec 25th Mithras festival.

Anyways, this book takes the Major Arcana of the tarot and ties it all in with classical mythology and the work of  Jung. If you want a work on tarot minus magick & divination, then this is the place for you.

It's like Campbell's Hero With A Thousand Faces, only short, to the point and with lots of really pretty pictures (no really, the art included to illustrate events from classical mythology are worth the price of the book alone).

What is especially nice, is that at the end of every chapter, there is a summary of each card that points out the Archetype, Task, Feeling, Goal & Risk of each card. These end of chapter summaries are extremely helpful.

It's one of those books that will remind you of many episodes in your own life when you read about how you passed/failed the events symbolized by each card. The book comes with a handy chart that portrays the Hero's journey as a solar cycle complete with journey into the underworld.

You don't need a tarot deck to read this - it's purely a psychological treatise but in clear, concise terms. Giving a damn about magic, qabalah etc is entirely optional.

The only minus I would give it, is that the book was written in German first and then translated into English. On the whole, it's an easy read but there's an occasional lumpiness and lack of grace in the text that doesn't scan that well. But that's a very minor thing and certainly not sufficient to put anyone off (unless you're terminally lazy).

SSOOKN approved text

[P3nT4gR4m]

http://www.borndigital.com/tree/

This is one of my favourite sites of all time. More correspondences than you can swing a correspondent at.

Some of it is verging on wiccan gong banging but don't let that put you off - there's a wealth of good info here