Question about BIP

[Sir Perineal]

'free will' and 'responsibility' can live together

the same way order and disorder live together


if you dont utilize your freedom, then you will get weighed down by responsibility
if you dont attend to your responsibility, then you are stripped of your freedom


the responsibilities are generically covered by most religions, but are done so in a way that suffocates people

Can't both "free will" and "responsibility" not exist as well?

[LHX]

of course they can not exist

the same way as anything for which there is a word for but cant be visually demonstrated


in this case -
the only trial is experience

and not playing dirty by replacing 'free will' and 'responsibility' with synonyms

when you make a movement - what is it called?

what is the motivation behind it?


gravity makes things fall

pressure makes you move - perhaps free will and responsibility are examples of pressure and/or absence of pressure?


we can flesh out the possibilities

[LMNO]

So, almost everything I was going to say has already been said.

But, because I like to hear myself speak-- uh, type-- I'll repeat what has come before.


The point of the BIP metaphor is (at least) twofold:

1. Accept that there are limitations in your biology and psychology.
--a) Accept that the limitations in your biology imply that you can never be 100% sure you can see everything that's going on around you.
--b) Accept that the limitations in your psychology further color and warp the limited information your biology allows you to see.

2. You can change your psychology as you see fit.

Now, while this seems fairly simple, it also seems fairly obvious that many people do not act with this knowledge in their mind.  They seem to act only semi-conciously, as if believeing that their limited perception of the universe IS THE ONLY REALITY THERE IS.  They also ascribe many of their psycholgical limitations to external forces.  While there are physical consequences to the actions you choose, the choice is ultimately yours to make.

The ultimate goal, then, is not to achieve some sense of "enlightenment" or "higher level"; it's to accept more responsibility in your life, and to take action to make your life more enjoyable.


Like the big Woman says: "Oh, well, then stop."  And a corollary: "Or shut the fuck up and stop whining."

[AFK]

For a current example of 1(b) refer to the GodhelpBritain blog featured in the news section. 

[Cain]

Actually, I think the OP was asking a question about free will....Personally, I am surprised there are Discordians who don't believe in free will.  I would question your choice in irreligion if you are a determinist and perhaps go with something more....structured.

I know I have freedom, because I can make choices.  Its pretty simple.  I could have answered this at any time yesterday.  I wasn't doing anything important, yet I decided not to.  In fact, I did something a bit less enjoyable which I didn't have to do for any particular reason, except I wanted to.

If you want to deny your freedom, thats your business. Become another automaton, try and play a role that has been predetermined for you.  But you'll only be proving me right, because you chose to do it in the first place.

[Mangrove]

Actually, I think the OP was asking a question about free will....Personally, I am surprised there are Discordians who don't believe in free will.  I would question your choice in irreligion if you are a determinist and perhaps go with something more....structured.

I know I have freedom, because I can make choices.  Its pretty simple.  I could have answered this at any time yesterday.  I wasn't doing anything important, yet I decided not to.  In fact, I did something a bit less enjoyable which I didn't have to do for any particular reason, except I wanted to.

If you want to deny your freedom, thats your business. Become another automaton, try and play a role that has been predetermined for you.  But you'll only be proving me right, because you chose to do it in the first place.

Cain to the rescue with the sentiment I failed to include in my post.

I thought about it offline over the weekend as I was doing crap around the house. Basically, I cannot give anyone a detailed, philosophical argument over why I believe in Free Will. All I can say is that notions of Predetermination/Predestination or whatever just seem so apparently wrong. All I have is a gut feeling that the notion that my whole life is preplanned is just stupid. There's no philosophy, only my intuitive appreciation that Free Will is the sensible explanation.

I hear lots of people say: "Oh well...everything happens for a reason". Of course, people only really use that cliche after something bad has happened. I've never heard anyone say: "Hey! I WON MONEY!!! EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON!!". It's usually more lik: "I got fired from my job...but then I found a new one and I met a nice girl at work....everything happens for a reason."

I don't accept that. Things happen and you find reasons for them. Guess that's just another law of fives thing. When Mrs Mang's father was killed by teen drunk drivers, the church people that Mrs Mang knew were like: "Oh well..I'm sure God had this in his plan and that he needed MrsMangDad to be with him in heaven." Well, that's just the dumbest thing I ever heard.

If God is ALL POWERFUL, then teleporting someone to heaven & back isn't a problem. There was no need to squish him in an auto accident. The poor guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He exercised his free will to be in his car, as did the kids who chose to drink/drive.

The kids exercised their free will to drink & drive. Their BIP (typical of adolescent males) was structured on the belief that "it's ok to drink/drive because the chances of anything happen are so remote."

So I guess...as I'm thinking this out while I type....our Free Will and our BIP structures are intermingled and co-emergent. Free Will is the light that shines between the bars?

I need tea & a baked good of some description....

[P3nT4gR4m]

Free will is what you make of it. Choose to decide, or don't. Believe in limitations and see patterns as you see fit. If you think the world is out to get you it will be. Reality is no less real to the guy who wears a tinfoil hat. You might think he's crazy but he doesn't. He prolly thinks you're crazy, doesn't change a thing. The CIA might as well be beaming thoughts into his head, either way you look at it.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I doubt we truly have free will in a deeper sense of reality, but that the experience of conscious volition is an essential delusion to maintain.

[LHX]

I doubt we truly have free will in a deeper sense of reality, but that the experience of conscious volition is an essential delusion to maintain.

and Net rips a hole in the entire thread


this forum is classic

the most reluctant metaphysicists on planet earth

[Triple Zero]

I doubt we truly have free will in a deeper sense of reality, but that the experience of conscious volition is an essential delusion to maintain.

if my chaostheory solution turns out to be bullshit i would be going with this one.

(it's kind of related to what i tried to put into words with "for me, because that sounds like a pretty lousy excuse for not even wanting to try.")

shall we now again continue do discuss why it is essential, and how to convince others that it, in fact, is the case?

[AFK]

I doubt we truly have free will in a deeper sense of reality, but that the experience of conscious volition is an essential delusion to maintain.

Why so we don't give up?

But, then is the choice to give up free will or the delusion of conscious volition?

[P3nT4gR4m]

At simplest level - we can move molecules about and mix them and make and destroy stuff. Chaos does not dictate what we will decide to do, it merely predicts that a decision will be made.

No one can tell me that the decision itself is not up to me, regardless of how heavily influenced I am by things like media, government, astrology or alien thought beamers.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I doubt we truly have free will in a deeper sense of reality, but that the experience of conscious volition is an essential delusion to maintain.

Why so we don't give up?

But, then is the choice to give up free will or the delusion of conscious volition?

Because it's all around more fun.

Of course I'd say it's a delusion of choice here, but outside the context of this discussion I'd probably presuppose free will exists. 

[LHX]

i think its even further than that


watch what happens when you try to give up

'giving up' suggests the premise that you can go somewhere where it isnt as rough (some people seem to think that there is a place called 'non-existence')


giving up isnt a option - but you have the free will to try it out if you arent convinced

[Sir Perineal]

I doubt we truly have free will in a deeper sense of reality, but that the experience of conscious volition is an essential delusion to maintain.

I find myself agreeing with Netaungrot here.

Let's think about something for a moment.

What is your body made up of?  Trillions of cells, right?  What does each of those tiny cells do?  Function as an automaton, right?

The question that I have yet seen any satisfying answer to is: where and how does "freedom" fit in within an amalgamation of automata?

Descartes' "ghost in the machine" is still quite the ghastly problem, is it not?  Where do you think we get the joke about consulting our pineal glands?