Question about BIP

[LMNO]

[TGRR]

Freedom is a verb, you sockfuckers.

[/TGRR]

[Triple Zero]

as in:

I'LL "FREEDOM" YOU IN THE JIMMY YOU MOTHERFUCKERS!!!

if i understood him correctly

[Sir Perineal]

Peri:

It would seem to me that whether or not we actually have Free Will is irrelevant.  If given the way the Universe seems to work, and the way that Humans seem to behave inside it, then the important thing seems to be that we act as though we have free will.  To do otherwise is to submit your will to something other than yourself.

Yes, even if free will is illusory, we still seem necessitated to believe in it on instinct.  That is why it seems so counter-intuitive to many people when they are confronted with the possibility of its non-existence, maybe?

However, I like LHX's response about how necessity can be just as romantic as liberty if viewed from a different perspective.

Personally, I get more lulz out of the fact that I am part of some big predetermined game/performance that is being played out on a cosmic stage, rather than thinking that I must desperately struggle as a free individual against the billions of other forces fighting against me in the world.  But I'm sure there are plenty of others who like it the other way around, right?

[LMNO]

Probably, yeah.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I like to think god has a plan for me and I keep sabotaging it by doing the 'wrong' thing

[Triple Zero]

after reading what i did yesterday, i think i'm going with the scale-difference for a while:

so, chemicals are deterministic, but i'm not going to pretend i can exercise my free will on the laws of physics to make them behave otherwise.

but the higher-level stuff, like people talking, working, creating things, i mean, what do we do all day? can you translate that back into chemical reactions? and let's say you have done so (if at all possible), can a human mind grasp these chemical reactions as being such? i don't think so, we cannot possible be aware of the human body as a huge chemical reaction, that is why we have created symbols to deal with it, i'm not gonna say "the chemicals in my body will do such and such and such and such .. and such .. and such .. and such" but i will say "i'm gonna walk over here", because in the first case you will not understand what i mean, neither can i express it correctly. this is just another bar in our prison.

now i'm gonna agree with anybody who says that free will doesn't exist on the chemical level, but on the macro-level, where we talk only about the meaning of these chemical reactions, where, and we cannot build a bridge between the micro and macro level, you cannot even imagine how a chemical reaction makes a single muscle-fiber move (well maybe our resident biologist could), let alone how a complete human body works, especially the mind/brain/nervous system (or the heart, for that matter). so i'd like you to make a case against free will on the macro-level, without making any sudden leaps to the micro/chemical level.

[Sir Perineal]

after reading what i did yesterday, i think i'm going with the scale-difference for a while:

so, chemicals are deterministic, but i'm not going to pretend i can exercise my free will on the laws of physics to make them behave otherwise.

but the higher-level stuff, like people talking, working, creating things, i mean, what do we do all day? can you translate that back into chemical reactions? and let's say you have done so (if at all possible), can a human mind grasp these chemical reactions as being such? i don't think so, we cannot possible be aware of the human body as a huge chemical reaction, that is why we have created symbols to deal with it, i'm not gonna say "the chemicals in my body will do such and such and such and such .. and such .. and such .. and such" but i will say "i'm gonna walk over here", because in the first case you will not understand what i mean, neither can i express it correctly. this is just another bar in our prison.

now i'm gonna agree with anybody who says that free will doesn't exist on the chemical level, but on the macro-level, where we talk only about the meaning of these chemical reactions, where, and we cannot build a bridge between the micro and macro level, you cannot even imagine how a chemical reaction makes a single muscle-fiber move (well maybe our resident biologist could), let alone how a complete human body works, especially the mind/brain/nervous system (or the heart, for that matter). so i'd like you to make a case against free will on the macro-level, without making any sudden leaps to the micro/chemical level.

If you want a case against "macro-level" free will, talk to a sociologist?

[Triple Zero]

sorry but i think that, while a sociologist would agree that certain actions of individuals are predictable up to a certain point, he would definitely not say they are fully deterministic, nor deny the ability for an individual to make his own decisions, or, in effect, free will.

but maybe you can find a sociologist that says otherwise.

but i don't think so.
can you predict individual actions? yes, up to a certain point.
can you coerce individuals to make certain actions, even without their knowledge? of course, up to a certain point.
can individuals decide to act different from their predicted actions? of course, up to a certain point this is what discordianism is trying to do (and it's not a work in progress, we are already doing it)
can individuals resist coercion, decide to, coerce themselves, do whatever the fuck they damn well please? of course! and i think no sociologist is going to tell you otherwise.

(so um, i just noticed that, after a slight detour this brings me at pretty much the same stage as LHX, LMNO, Silly and the rest, with the slight difference that i can now actually rationalize/argument the idea enough for myself to believe in .. for now, at least)

[LMNO]

Heh.  Agreement, ITT.  Close this thread now!



Also, you can make predictions of human behavior based on probabilities and typical primate behavior, but you can't predict precise individual action/thought/behavior.  Yes, I know this is what 000 just said.  Shut up.

[Triple Zero]

Heh.  Agreement, ITT.  Close this thread now!

quickly! close it and bury it! let nobody see anybody discordians can actually agree on anything!

Shut up.

aye.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Sociologist: You have no free will, everything you do is determined by forms and forces beyond your comprehension

Cybin: Observe this barstool

Sociologist: Ungggggffffff!!!!!

Cybin: Well, would ya look at what predetermination just made me do.

[Triple Zero]

i totally predicted someone would say that

(out of free will of course)

[P3nT4gR4m]

i totally thought someone would say that .. to myself... can't prove it

(out of free will of course)

Fixxored - predictions have to be spoken out loud!

[LHX]

i am not congratulating anybody in this thread

[LMNO]

i am not congratulating anybody in this thread

Bravo!!