Interesting shit from back in the day.

[LMNO]

Title: Ideals

Jenne:  What happens to ideals in the BIP?  Are they allowed?  Are they used as a noose?

I think most of the people on this forum have them.  Are they a new rope to hang yourself with?  I often wonder how much we enslave ourselves to them when they are hidden so well within our own mindsets.  They creep out unbeknownst to even the most discerning self-aware thinker.  Anyway, I'm just wondering what folks hereabouts would think about so-called Ideals/Idealism.  It does exist here...it fairly echoes throughout the forum's halls.  For a place that decries much of the preset notions that society force-feeds us, there's a fair bit of dogma nevertheless that creates a soupcon of rigidity to what is to be known/unknown and sought/left behind...

Hangero:  I don't know if it's an ideal, because I don't know if it will ever bring me happiness (or if that even really exists), but the endless pursuit of Truth and Knowledge drive me.  It might be an ideal or not.  Ideals usually leave me bitter because so many of them are impossible, but I think sense a definite ideal behind all of this (The board, BIP, PD, and so on), even if it is as simple as waking people up.

Jenne:  I think ideals set us up for ultimate failure.  NOT in all things, but primarily in whatever premise you set out to achieve proof for.  Maybe as long as you realize and acknowledge said failure, or possibility thereof, it's ok.

Rev. What's-His-Name?:  Maybe as long as you realize and acknowledge said failure, or possibility thereof, it's ok.  I guess the key would be to have Realistic Ideals.  Be a Realistic Idealist. Like, it would be Ideal if everyone "woke up" to see some or all of what they have seemingly been blind to.  However, it's probably quite delusional to think that would ever happen.  Hell, it's probably delusional to think even 1% of 6 billion would buy into it.  But then again, is that the goal?  I don't think so.  I think it is to offer vision, or, the chance to have vision, or to be aware of the "Ideal" of vision.  Those who wish explore the "Ideal", those who don't continue on their merry way.  Perhaps some those who explore the "Ideal" of vision say, "Eh, I'm Okay" and also continue as they were. 

Jenne:  I know I keep going back to this notion of what you are socialized to do and become vs. what you are programmed through genetics (which, I believe, have been shown to have SOME aspect of environmental manipulation as well) to do.  I think idealism, in all forms, is a direct impact of your environment.  And, going back to what I said above, people usually either mostly EMBRACE their environment, or reject it outright.  However, if you're someone with a jaundiced eye toward pie-in-the-sky goal-setting, you're going to not necessarily spend much time and resources trying to set and then attain these goals, though you might unwittingly be working towards them all along.

What happens to an individual when they realize they've been reaching towards all the wrong things all along, or what they were working for is imminently unattainable but is really, really interesting.  I think this serves as a wake-up point for the BIP analogy. You take a person who is very AWARE of how reachable their set ideals were since the beginning, and they are an entirely different animal. 

So, when I say I think ideals set us up for failure, for my first example, those who are eventually disillusioned, is who I was primarily talking about.  We all know these people, hell, some of us ARE these people.  You were brought up to believe something, live a certain way, you go along with it with certain expectations in mind.  Then BAM! right between the eyes, the Hideous Troof(tm) is revealed, and you tailspin out of the path you'd preset when you were pimply-faced and jacking off in your parent's basement.

The second type of goal-setting idealist, the Realist Idealist(tm) that RWHN is talking about, had the smack between the eyes earlier on in life, and never saw the unattainable as part of his/her universe.  S/he may or may not recognize how different they may be vis a vis their own brand of idealism...generally they probably are and look with derision upon those who haven't "woken up" yet.  I think you can all recognize that this is generally a person who is drawn automatically or even naturally to a movement like this.  There is very little pulling them down into their set, societal ties, so loosing hold of them in order to accept a set of beliefs like what is here in the BIP is not so hard after all.

Hangero:  Personal Liberty, in whichever way it can be defined, seems to be the central modest ideal of all I pick up from PD, and BIP and all that stuff.  You can say you have no ideals, but by saying that you also intend that you have no purposes and wish for no changes.  Ideals are not poison, they just shouldn't have such incredible weight placed upon them.  But Personal Liberty seems to stand for me to be the principle that says people should be independent of all this bullshit that continually tries to entrap them.

And now another problematic thought occurs to me, and I think it is the main nerve of the problem overall:  What if, when man is given the ability to have control of his life, his eventual inclination is to hand over that control?  What if by fighting the enormous constructs of civilization, we are only fighting something so inherit in mankind that it can not be fully extinguished, or that we are merely existing on the fringe of some terrible wheel that arbitrarily prefers liberty or dominance, depending on the day of the week?

DJRubberducky:  It's a rare human who *doesn't* have that inclination, especially in "emergency" situations.  One of my housemates has been trained in the CERT program (FEMA's attempt to build a network of "local" first responders), and one of the things they were explicitly taught was that if you walk into an emergency situation and sound sufficiently authoritative, most folks will obey you without even realizing it.  They will assume you know what you're talking about because you *aren't* panicking, and they'll be naturally inclined to follow your directions.

Rev. What's-His-Name?:  That was one angle on The Machine(tm); that you can change parts of it.  But, realistically, you can't overcome or change the whole of it.  Some may be optimistic and think if you continuously change little parts here and there that the cumulative effect will be whole scale change.  However, it is fluid.  Just because one part changes doesn't mean it won't change back.  There are many cells in the Prison.  Nothing keeps someone from going back to the original cell they were in before their "enlightenment"

Triple Zero:  If people use their freedom to hand over the control, that would be fine, as long as they don't get in the way of others who want to hang on to it.  This is of course a paradox.  Perhaps it's the paradox of the Machine. people are inherently free, but some (a lot, in fact) want to hand over the control, and thereby deny others who in fact do want control of their life, to have it.

Rev. What's-His-Name?:  It is a paradox, and one I am familiar with.  My parents are devout Baptists and in a perfect world would want me to follow their faith.  My faith, if they were fully aware of it, would scare the ever loving Jesus out of them.  To them it would be crazy talk.  Of course I am an adult now so there is no direct pressure, but as a child I could see where they would want to keep me from following what I consider a path to freedom and they would consider a "path to hell."

SillyCybin:  Your mission - teach the masses not to just blindly accept that what someone tells them is how it is

The paradox - they shouldn't really believe you either

Cain:  Well, being the nasty little Classical Realist I sometimes am, my opinion is that ideals are highly dangerous things to have just flapping around the place.  Many criticisms within foreign policy thought about the NeoConservative ideology is that it,Äôs too idealistic and too impossible.  Practicality is overlooked in the name of idealism, even to the point that you hurt yourself.  And then, at the end of the day, when you're bloody and beaten and hated quite justly by the world, you can at least say "I was doing the right thing!"

And that,Äôs a criticism I feel is valid.  Ideals mean you have an idea of what is right and wrong for others, without even knowing them (an impressive trick, I'm sure you'll agree).  "Let justice be done, though the world may perish" is the motto of every idealist everywhere.  When ideals and action fuse, everyone is in for a world of hurt because, as I keep saying, perception is imperfect.  You cannot know what is best for everyone and trying to force such things is going against the natural grain of things, for want of a better explanation.

Ideals can inform action, but they can never directly influence them.  To use a politics example again (excuse me, but it is my area of knowledge) the invasion to invade Iraq could have easily been made on human rights and self determination of the populace (republican) ideals.  But then you would have critically assessed the situation on the ground and in country, projecting how current actions and decisions will impinge on the future prospects of the country.  Instead, the ideals of a liberal democracy springing up overrode these critical checks on policy, to the current detriment.

So if I apply that to my own ideal, namely that of more personal freedom, I have to think about how this benefits me and everyone else around me.  For example, there would have to be certain checks involving consent in actions, and a certain amount of focus on the social contract.  But if by infringing on my freedom it shows that the same method can be used against others personal freedoms, suddenly my ideal becomes the interest of others as well.  It is not so much an ideal as a meta or foundation-ideal, a precondition for other ideals to take hold. 


On an entirely personal note, I tend to agree with this vein of though concerning self benefit with the general good.  I am not what is perceived by people as "good" because I think it is right, but because it suits my interests more than if I were to not be.  Equally, when I do not act in a way that is perceived as good by people, its because its in my own self interest to be so and that benefit outweighs any potential cost.

LHX:  The only reasonable ideal would seem to be a vague one, something along the lines of 'good is better than bad'.  Being a part of something that can endure is better than being a part of something that is self-destructive by default.

[LMNO]

"Universal Ethical Rational Egoism is the Machine(tm)", a threadjack by Hangero.

I'll explain that now.

If there is a single overarching concept which permeates all realms of human behavior and natural phenomenon as we know it, it is the tendency for items to behave in ways which benefit themselves.  Within humans it is easiest to see and explain, and boils down to people acting in a surprisingly enlightened manner as to what actually benefits themselves. 

Some philosophers believe this is an ideal to be strived towards, but it is more so an inescapable fact of existence which limits the range of our behavior.  We are unable to actually make a real decision, because decisions don't exist.  Between Determinism, Causality, factors of environment, and Universal Ethical Rational Egoism, we are absolutely bound and held to a narrow and unbreakable set of possible behaviors.

To me, that is the very essence of the Machine.

Why I say it isn't ethical, is because anything which prohibits freedom must be unethical.  Even if it is something that prevents us from harming ourselves or others, any barrier in the way of the actual will of whichever transcendental "us" that must exist somewhere else, is unacceptable and unethical.

Aside from that, Universal Ethical Egoism boils the human soul down to a mechanical animal, cheapens all of our actions and makes them all, whether we know it or not, selfish actions.  Concepts like love, caring, kindness, humility, and friendship all become cynical specters of themselves, reminding us of the truly shallow waters of our reality.

[LMNO]

,ÄúThere is no Escape,Äù, by Benaclypse

So, you've woken up to the wretchedness of your prison cell, and you want to get everybody to take the "red pill" and wake up to the harsh reality of the Black Iron Prison.  I agree that they should.  A happy prisoner that just doesn't get it would never think of helping the escape effort.  Or is escape even possible?  A black sheep is still a sheep. 

Say you do escape.  You spend every night digging a tunnel out of the hell hole with a spork you stole from the mandatory dinner, leave a dummy in your bed made out of toilet paper and painted with blood, then escape!  Well then, you're a free man now, right?  Wrong.  Now you must live the life of a fugitive.  There is no escape from the warden, the president, the Lord, or any of the major tyrants you despise.  They will haunt you, hunt you down, and make you pay time. 

Maybe you should have just tried getting out on good behavior instead?  Maybe you should have just coordinated a prison break a~la Natural Born Killers?  Whatever's clever, there is no escape from the Black Iron Prison, because its oppressive air is everywhere, driving us all into a black iron lung. 

There is no escape from the Black Iron Prison, but you can become its warden.  Did you just hear me say that?  Yes, I said you, the prisoner, can become your enemy: the tip top fucking warden, but who would want a shitball job like that?  You would if you could turn the Black Iron Prison into something more like the paradise you've been dreaming of to keep you from hanging yourself with the bedsheets.  How do you attain that kind of power?  How do you suddenly shift from imprisoned victim to King of the Concrete?  Perhaps you will, one of these days, wake up from the horror of the Black Iron Prison that you've woken up to, by transforming it.  You will change your fate, and fate will change you, because you must, and it must.  You can paint the prison bars white as sunshine.  You can become the president and paint the white house gold.  But there is no escape from the Black Iron Prison.

[AFK]

Wow, suddenly the last year of my life is flashing before my eyes. 
I need to take it easy on that scroll button. 

[Jenne]

Wow, LMNO.  This, well, just rocks. 

[LMNO]

I suppose the next thing to do when this thread is done is to boil it down into it's constituent parts.

[Triple Zero]

datacompression, ITT

[LHX]

dtcmprsnITT

[Triple Zero]

[size=0pt].[/size]

[LHX]

-

[LMNO]

Hey, stop jacking this Very Important Thread.


[self-righteous]

[LHX]

RWHNs pun disease spread

im sick

im sick

[LMNO]

Bump for AK.

[LMNO]

Reverse Brainwashing, by BMW:


Introduction
I'm  not all that great at this stuff, so I'm not posting a piece for the PD06. Instead, I am going to expand upon what I call reverse brainwashing, and was mentioned earlier in the brainstorming stages. Reverse Brainwashing works in nearly the same manner as the garden variety, except its purpose is to free the individual from their 'Iron Bar Prison', and get them to expand their imagination to think for themselves. To wake them up to reality, essentially. Like the opposite, reverse brainwashing rewrites a persons paradigm, and there are several stages to the process.

1. Hook the Sheep
   In this stage we attract those who may be more receptive to waking up at the moment. From earlier discussions, we have found that certain things work well to attract the target population. From polls of other discordians, we have found the target age group, the age group which is most receptive to this process is late teens (16-20). So the modes of attraction are aligned towards these individuals.
   Shiny things tend to catch peoples eye, that is, things that are oddly colored when compared to surroundings. The best way to go is LOUD. Clashing colors, bright graphics, complex, interesting looking graphics, these all get peoples attention. One color font is right out. Non standard fonts are better, but make sure they are easily readable. Make each sentence or thought a different color. Use bright colors, or at least those that contrast highly with the background. Make it ATTRACTIVE to teens these days. You know they spend all day in bland 'prisons', so make it look as different from the prison as possible!
   Place the propaganda in prominent locations. If you are going to disseminate fliers, dress cleanly and properly (depending on the location, maybe suit, maybe street gear), but don't say anything, just hand them out. At this point we are just trying to get them to notice.

2. Reel them in
   So, you've caught their attention. Now, what do you TELL them off the bat? Generally, members agree to leave out as many inside jokes as possible. Leave out 'classic' rich words too, like All Hail Eris, Fn0rd, Greyface, etc. These only get in the way of keeping them interested. In fact, leave out any mention of religion in general. Use newly coined phrases, like ,ÄúThe Discordian Society cordially invites you to join us in a jailbreak...,Äù. Leave out as much classical humor as possible. Use questioning phrases.
   Most of all, intrigue them. Give them just a little meat to work with, using new buzzwords like ,ÄúIron Bar Prison,Äù. Make them want to come to you for more. Make the message short, don't draw it out. These kids have short attention spans, its got to be catchy.
   Finally, give them somewhere to go. Putting www.principiadiscordia.com at the end of the flier is good, or the address to POEE. This is very important, and it will weed out those who are truly interested; they will take the initiative and come.

3. Operation Mindfuck
   In this stage we fuck with the dogma that is stuck in circuit. We weaken the prison with weirdness. This is the realm of the PD06 now in progress, it is the most difficult job of this process, and the most important. It is here that we begin changing the paradigm.
   The document itself has little ability for variability in length. On one hand, the potential discordians have short attention spans, so it should be short enough to adjust for this. On the other hand, there is a minimum length for such documents, because of the time needed for the weakening to occur. This is important: if the PD06 is too short, it will accomplish little or nothing in this stage. This is because a sort of minor hypnosis must occur, which allows the mind to be more easily screwed with.
   The PD06 must be easily accessible; if possible, it should be the first discordian document the potential has ever come across. The less he/she has heard before this point, the better. Put it next to or, if possible, in place of the original at PD.com.
   It should look unassuming. Start out with the same sorts of things from the 'propaganda'. Give a little humor, but make it background. Use lots of buzzphrases. Use repetition. Lull them into an unassuming state, while slowly increasing the weirdness.
   When a critical point is reached, completely shatter their world view. Shock them.  Warning: this can only work if they are first lulled into that semi-hypnotic state. This is the point of turning, where the dogma that has been ingrained is broken. What they knew can't possibly be true anymore. So give them something else to know.

4. Reversing the cycle
   Throughout the PD06, subliminal messages should be placed. These should span around central themes such as freedom, 'jailbreak', thinking for oneself, imagination, waking up, etc. gradually increase the frequency of these and decrease the subliminality, until the critical point is reached. Then, all things should be about these central themes. At this point, we are taking their closed mind and replacing it with an open one. We broke their reality, and now supply a better one. Once you are at this point, you can say nearly anything, and a person will run with it, so be careful! Don't fall in the same traps as the original pd! Yes, some randomness, some humor, but don't make them the most important things. Otherwise you end up with more 'zomg23pinealglandlol' discordians, who are seldom well welcomed in most discordian forums, and their growth as people is also impeded.

5. Welcome the convert
   So a person is converted. What next? They most likely go to find more like them. Thus making active discordian web communities of high importance. The convert should be welcomed and guided. They still have lots to learn. Eventually they should be introduced to the full cannon of discordian literature. But for now, teach the basics. As before, keep the religious aspects low key. There is still the possibility to ostracise. Make them feel welcomed, give them praise and constructive criticism. Encourage them in their interests. In other words, be like good foster parents. They're still kids and have a long way to go!


Conclusion
One by one, we break the sheep from their Iron Bar Prisons and expand their imaginations, make them think for themselves. In turn, they break more from their prisons. Eventually, critical mass is reached. Our key word: Resolve. Evangelize with compassion and determination. And realize that there will be few in the beginning. We are hand picking our successors. They are the future of discordianism. Let us guide our future with intelligence.

                                 Yurito Sakari,

                      The Wannabe Buddhist Monk

[Cramulus]

Nice!

--tossed onto the wiki