News:

Licenced Jenkem provider since 2007

Main Menu

Issue that is itching my brain...

Started by Sir Perineal, March 10, 2007, 08:59:14 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

tyrannosaurus vex

Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.

Sir Perineal

Quote from: Lysergic on March 13, 2007, 03:45:14 PM
If destiny really does exist, and free will doesn't, then isn't it a bit of a mind fuck that destiny is making us debate about free wills existance?

Discordia is probably laughing Her ass off at the irony  :wink:
Sir Perineal Gräfenberg III, KSC, AOHF, AISB, FNORD, HIMEOBS

~Concordian Commissar of the Academic Order of THE HEMLOCK FELLOWSHIP~

Heckler567

i say yes to free will, but im not saying we arnt influenced , society , conformity, all the social values and norms, the sterotypes  are all in place to limit that freedom, why doesnt everyone dye their hair bright orange tomorrow, because its not seen the proper thing to do in a soceity ( then again i get shit for having long golden hair )

guest7654

Quote from: LMNO on March 12, 2007, 01:20:43 PM
It doesn't really matter to me if Free Will exists.

To me, it's more important to act as if you have free will, because it seems better than the submissive alternative.

Isn't this the essence of free will?  Of course it exists.
But what if your head was bitten off by a grue just as you are being born?  Then free will doesn't exist for you.  But just because u dont see it or have it doesnt mean its not there.

Bo

I always find it strange that free will is always opposed to determinism.  More important: free will requires determinism. Since free will is like the ability to consiously choose something, but  if there is no determinism, there is no choice. Simply since without determinism, each choice in principle could lead to any outcome.
So imo the concept of free will/choice is meaningless without determinism.
With determinism, there is only an illusion
Unless something strange happens
which is usually what happens

Random Probability


The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Lysergic on March 13, 2007, 03:45:14 PM
If destiny really does exist, and free will doesn't, then isn't it a bit of a mind fuck that destiny is making us debate about free wills existance?

No.

TGRR,
Fated to say that.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

LMNO

#37
Quote from: Bo on March 20, 2007, 08:50:33 PM
I always find it strange that free will is always opposed to determinism.  More important: free will requires determinism. Since free will is like the ability to consiously choose something, but  if there is no determinism, there is no choice. Simply since without determinism, each choice in principle could lead to any outcome.
So imo the concept of free will/choice is meaningless without determinism.
With determinism, there is only an illusion
Unless something strange happens
which is usually what happens

Remind me to come back to this in 47 posts. 




Never mind, I just realized you're not retarded, you're Dutch.




Anyway, are you talking about Determinism, or Consequences?  I mean, if I throw a ball, it will be pulled to the earth by gravity.  That is a consequence of throwing the ball.  It's pretty much determined that the ball will fall to the ground if I throw it.  But the choice to throw the ball is undetermined, until I actually throw it (or not).

Triple Zero

Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

P3nT4gR4m

Thinking about being a retard?

Why not try being Dutch first?

That way if you don't like it you can emigrate.

Much less hassle than irreversible brain damage.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Bo

Quote from: LMNO on March 21, 2007, 12:31:34 PM
Never mind, I just realized you're not retarded, you're Dutch.
That went fast :)
Quote
Anyway, are you talking about Determinism, or Consequences?  I mean, if I throw a ball, it will be pulled to the earth by gravity.  That is a consequence of throwing the ball.  It's pretty much determined that the ball will fall to the ground if I throw it.  But the choice to throw the ball is undetermined, until I actually throw it (or not).
Deterministic consequences.
So on large scales the world is clearly deterministic and your free will uses this property in order to make decissions.  It is not clear to me how something which is nondeterministic in nature could lead to deterministic conclusions. Or in other words how can a nondeterministic system 'know' determinism? Just in technical terms this seems impossible to me (but perhaps i'm just retarded :))
The opposite however seems very natural. A deterministic system can easily look nondeterministic (all kinds of chaotic systems, popcorn, humans)



LMNO

Interesting theory.

However, i have to say that while there might be rules that govern motion, that is very different from choosing to set an object in motion.

You seem to be conflating the two.

hunter s.durden

Is it different?

It's possible that that butterfly wing flap 10000 years ago made you choose the fish over the chicken.
This space for rent.

LMNO

Then again, maybe it didn't.



Weak argument, IMO.

hunter s.durden

I'm saying could.
Not an argument.
I'm not doing the fucking math here, I was just putting it out.

I don't believe it either,but it's a thought.
This space for rent.