Killing Tomorrow Today

[Cain]

History teaches me that nothing is permanent and people assume too much.  Oh and mistakes are common and there is no overriding tendency to progress, or economic equality, or freedom or any of those things.

[Triple Zero]

History teaches me that nothing is permanent and people assume too much.  Oh and mistakes are common and there is no overriding tendency to progress, or economic equality, or freedom or any of those things.

how about other things?

technology, human lifespan/healthcare

and it doesn't even have to be good things, could be we're all marching into the abyss, 's also a story, not a very nice story though, also not really one that you'd want the larger part of humanity to blindly beileve in

and you say in history nothing is permanent. okay. how about "history repeats itself", that's true to some vague extent, the cycles of creation/rise and destruction/fall make sure nothing is permanent, but it's still a narrative, right?

[Cain]

Not necessarily.

In some parts of Africa, you're lucky to live beyond 40, when 100 years ago you'd get closer to 60.  And we're not marching into an Abyss because some progress is made.  Its just not necessary that it happens.

History repeating itself is a trite aphorism for those who want to control the discourse for their own ends.  After all, its so much easier to convince people to do something when you can dredge up past events, even if their resemblance to current issues is only superficial at best. 

Your argument is implying there is necessity for certain actions.  That technology, or human welfare or something must do this or that or the other.  Its never that simple.  If there were rules of history, we would have found them after 2,400 years of analysis.  We haven't.

[AFK]

when you make a warning to people, it is easy to brush it off


people seem to have a 'what the hell does he know?' file folder that they can easily shift information into

if they dont put it into that category, they can easily shift it into the 'it wont happen to me' file


there is another category too: the 'let them do something about it' category


even on this board itself there is people that will tell you that you are taking the situation too seriously


the 'crash and burn' perspective



every 'crash and burn' person i ever met crashed and burned, but they burned longer than they expected
and the burning sensation was different than what they expected

it burned in places they didnt realize it could burn, and it burned longer than they had prepared themselves to handle

no amount of repression or suppression or whatever defense mechanism people try to employ to escape this situation will be sufficient



only time will tell how accurate your observation is
but if i was a betting man - i would say that anybody that doesnt take heed to the OP in this forum is in for something something

Well, so far I've talked to two group of inmates and a group of homeless people.  All in their early 20s.  These folks are raising the generation that follows them.  I fear an emerging feedback loop that is only going to make things more difficult.  In fact, one of the inmate groups pretty much told me so.  They said the situation is going to get much worse over the next 5 to 10 years.  And I have no reason to not believe them based on what I've seen so far.  

And you are right.  There has been a culture of "let them deal with it."  Because it isn't pc to help, to really help people in jail or people living on the streets.  They fucked up so fuck them.  

The problem is, many of them were raised in a family/school culture that reinforced that.  So, they were only doing what they know.  

Kids are having to grow up sooner these days.  I can use the school I grew up in as an example.  The students are being turned into work aholics.  When I was in that school I had two study halls a day, and typically I only had homework in one or two subjects a night.  Today, that school has eliminated ALL study halls and my brother and sister who are currently attending that school typically have homework in 3 or 4 subjects a night.  This is not an isolated school culture.  Meanwhile class schedules have literally made it impossible for anyone to take band or music lessons even if they wanted to.  

Kids need to be kids.  The sooner we make them adults the sooner this stuff happens.  And like adults, as soon as they start screwing up, they're on their own.  

[AFK]

RWHN, you are very right.

and your writing has made me think of something. if children get wasted away in their young lives and old habits die hard, then what does this say about us? we all ended up here, does that mean we all got a fresh exciting interesting and stimulating childhood? (note that i did not necessarily say "good" or "happy".)

also, Net: lol

Maybe, maybe not.  There are exceptions of course.  Personally, I grew up in a family where, for the most part, I wasn't pressured to grow up in a certain way.  There was some religous pressure from time to time but even then it wasn't very firm.  They were more interested in me finding God on my own.  I wasn't told "You need to study hard and become a Doctor/Lawyer and make lots of money."  When I said I wanted to be an astronaut they didn't give me the patronizing laugh.  They reinforced in me that if that was what was going to make me happy then that's what I should do or aim for.  Of course, along the way, (and after a Shuttle explosion in 86) I decided on different goals for my life. 

But of course that's just one case.  And as I've heard in my research so far, there are kids who have a great family environment like that and still end up going of course and getting in trouble and getting lost.  There are environmental factors and there are biological factors.  Sometimes the biological trumps the environmental and vice versa.  Sometimes they double team as in the case of some of the young ladies I interiewed at the jail. 

there is no magic bullet.  But, there at least has to be a few magic bbs that can start to chip away at it. 

[AFK]

Eh, what I wrote here sounded like shite to me after I wrote it.  So never mind.

Let's just say, I know where you're coming from, and I hope folks listen to it.  Kids, ain't an easy equation.  And I feel for ya, Rev, when you have to do what you did today...that ain't easy, either.

It's been a heavy month.  Two groups of inmates and a group of homeless people.  It is clear there is much work to be done in this state.  But we all understand how an organization like The State is hard to change.  I'm not hopeless, but I can't ignore reality either.  Thankfully, the agency throwing some more green my way is going to make the home situation more comfortable.  One less thing to worry about as I and my colleagues take this monster on. 

[Triple Zero]

Not necessarily.

In some parts of Africa, you're lucky to live beyond 40, when 100 years ago you'd get closer to 60.  And we're not marching into an Abyss because some progress is made.  Its just not necessary that it happens.

History repeating itself is a trite aphorism for those who want to control the discourse for their own ends.  After all, its so much easier to convince people to do something when you can dredge up past events, even if their resemblance to current issues is only superficial at best. 

Your argument is implying there is necessity for certain actions.  That technology, or human welfare or something must do this or that or the other.  Its never that simple.  If there were rules of history, we would have found them after 2,400 years of analysis.  We haven't.

we've been analysing history for 2400 years? but surely we must have gotten better at analysing history in that time?

so if nothing's permanent, does that mean our technological knowledge of electricity (for example) will some day be taken to the grave by the last falling bit of civilisation with that knowledge?
there's probably some history of technological knowledge that's been lost by old civilisations only to be rediscovered later, but has that happened a lot?
has the complete body of current knowledge of humanity been forgotten already some time in history? otherwise how can you say it's not going to be permanent?

is there really no progress in anything anywhere?

i'm asking all this mostly because i find that quite hard to believe, let alone to come to terms with [as you both seem to have done?]

[LMNO]

What I'm getting out of this is that while things change, their effects upon us humans is varied.  We can try to track some sort of narrative arc, but this is just as much of an illusion as all the other false patterns our brain tries to desperately to see.

It's the Law of Fives as related to History.


Please note, I am not trying to speak for Cain or anyone else.  The above is my interpretation of the conversation so far.

[LHX]

that can be a awkward conclusion to come to - but it seems you might be on to something


as a side note / example - that was where Doc Howl's argument fell apart when he came by and tried to shake things up


he refuted everything being discussed on the board, but then he started making claims about events in history and archaeological finds like they actually meant something


they may be a point of reference for some people - but there is no way it is universal



it is not comfortable (especially for historians) to acknowledge the flaws in constructing a dependable version of history - but

whatever


some kids dont like giving up on santa either

[Triple Zero]

What I'm getting out of this is that while things change, their effects upon us humans is varied.  We can try to track some sort of narrative arc, but this is just as much of an illusion as all the other false patterns our brain tries to desperately to see.

It's the Law of Fives as related to History.

hm, okay, this i can relate to.

so the thing is, while you can sort out all sorts of cool patterns from the past, there's no way of telling whether the story will continue similarly in the future.

the good thing about the law of fives is that it can become really almost-but-not-quite real, the harder you look, so in case you ever need a grand narrative, just come up with something.

then i'd say better come up with one that doesn't make people want to bash eachother's heads in or sell out their bodies and minds to invisible corporations. thinking up a story in order to save another one .. kinda like 1001 nights

[LMNO]

Seems like the point should be:

1.  If you can avoid falling into the trap that these arcs are illusory, then you won't tend to fall into dogmatic ideology.

2. Or, you could see that they are illusory, and abandon them altogether.

Sort of like the difference between seeing that symbolism is psychological manipulation and using it to your advantage, or seeing that it's psychological and rejecting/abandoning it.

[P3nT4gR4m]

See what you want to see but know that you're seeing it because you want to. 

[LMNO]

"want" to?


What, are you a follower of TEH SECRET now?

[LHX]

Seems like the point should be:

1.  If you can avoid falling into the trap that these arcs are illusory, then you won't tend to fall into dogmatic ideology.

2. Or, you could see that they are illusory, and abandon them altogether.

Sort of like the difference between seeing that symbolism is psychological manipulation and using it to your advantage, or seeing that it's psychological and rejecting/abandoning it.

these are some potent conclusions to be coming to, man

[P3nT4gR4m]

"want" to?


What, are you a follower of TEH SECRET now?

Holy fuck that thing has a fkin amazing level of production for one of those. Who the hell's behind it?