Conscientious Objections

[Triple Zero]

holy shit

mr KAOS are you going to write all the time in huge chunks of text like this? cause if so, i'm afraid i cannot read it all

maybe next week i can print it off and have time to read it and make a reply, letters dance in front of my eyes if i try to read this all from a computer screen

[LHX]

yeah Kaos - it looks like you have something worth reading

but typing it like that makes it unreadable

[Ambassador KAOS]

holy shit

mr KAOS are you going to write all the time in huge chunks of text like this? cause if so, i'm afraid i cannot read it all

maybe next week i can print it off and have time to read it and make a reply, letters dance in front of my eyes if i try to read this all from a computer screen

Probably not, I'm not that motivated usually, but I make no promises for or against any specifici behaviors, except brains, I promise I will eet morr braynz.

[Triple Zero]

Probably not

okay then 

expect my reply somewhere next week

[Triple Zero]

you opted to get here.  You signed up for it and likely because it seemed like a good idea at the time

wtf?

that's stupid imo, but how did anyone sign up or opt in for existence?

the only thing that you might "opt in" for is the choice to stay alive, keep breathing, but really "opting out" isn't that easy--like trying to cancel your cable subscription, there's a lot of failsafes and other obstacles to cross.

"opting in" makes it sound like whatever-that's-supposed-to-be-opting-in (your soul?) somehow has a choice, an alternative for not being here. and if you're gonna count nonexistence as an alternative, think again, you first need to have the living breathing fleshmachine before there's any "soul" or whatever there to make a choice. because how can a nonexistent thing make a choice?

signing up for existence, for society or whatever, can make for a nice illustrative metaphore sometimes, but i wouldn't take it seriously.

it places the responsibility of your existence(s) squarley on your shoulders instead of pawning it off on some elusive and cruel god being and excusing you from responsibility to living your life.

responsibility for existence: no such thing
responsibility for living your life: most certainly

[Ambassador KAOS]

you opted to get here.  You signed up for it and likely because it seemed like a good idea at the time

wtf?

that's stupid imo, but how did anyone sign up or opt in for existence?

the only thing that you might "opt in" for is the choice to stay alive, keep breathing, but really "opting out" isn't that easy--like trying to cancel your cable subscription, there's a lot of failsafes and other obstacles to cross.

"opting in" makes it sound like whatever-that's-supposed-to-be-opting-in (your soul?) somehow has a choice, an alternative for not being here. and if you're gonna count nonexistence as an alternative, think again, you first need to have the living breathing fleshmachine before there's any "soul" or whatever there to make a choice. because how can a nonexistent thing make a choice?

Q. How can a non-existent thing make a choice? 
A. It was because it is.

(thanks for soliciting that response)

further, how it got there is of no consequence, but if it wasn't meant to it certainly wouldn't have.

I think you get that part better than most of everyone else so far, I was trying to keep this a bit less complicated than that however.  I figured if anyone had that much thought to put into it they'd say so.  Assuming then, that like everything you came from some swirling chaotic nether that decided to be at the point at which existence started, you would have issued forth from it, being a part of it "the sourse of existence" (which very well could be a self perpetuating canvas that always was) the whim of that thingy would have decided that you should be splintered off for some reason, even if it wasn't done on purpose, some preset law would have made it allowable by existence, (thus you could spin off at a randomly determined point, but the descision for that to be possible had to come from somewhere, thus makeing it the will of that which you came, and thus your will).  As far as non-existence not being a choice, well I don't know the answer to that and I'm not a hurry to find out as I'm sure I'll get there when I get there.  Debating this further would be to debate things like memes, collective unconscious and souls, at which point I have to call shinnanigans and give orders to fuck pigs.  Not because I think I know, or because I believe in anything, but because those kinds of arguments are boring and always go in circles that devlove into "I'm right because I said so" as no factual data exists to support it.  My idea presented is presented slightly differently, I don't claim that it's right or good or nice, but that it can be usefull and should be utilized in situations where it can have beneficial effects.

signing up for existence, for society or whatever, can make for a nice illustrative metaphore sometimes, but i wouldn't take it seriously.

I agree completely, taking life seriously puts you in the mental hospital.

it places the responsibility of your existence(s) squarley on your shoulders instead of pawning it off on some elusive and cruel god being and excusing you from responsibility to living your life.

responsibility for existence: no such thing
responsibility for living your life: most certainly
[/quote]

agreed, but that's too abstract for most folks I've encountered up till now.  More correctly though I'd state that existence is responsible for existence and it will continue to be whatever you do. The way i chose to phrase this rant was after having related this concept a dozen or more times in my life to people who would rather blame the external difficulties of their lives on some cruel all-being, on the problem itself, or on an unrelated but equally not responsible token.  As such I phrased it in a way for that audience with the purpose of attempting to ween them off of the need to blame someone else for life sucking when they should be looking to themselves to fix their own shit.  even then, I think that people are indeed addicted to negativity by their very nature and though you may not wake up and say "gee, I'd like to get shot today" (or maybe you do) that people are in need of negativity and a certain ammount of grief in life is necessary.  If nothing else, from a chemical perspective in how your hormones interact and distribute through your body.  Thanks though for engaging me on a level I haven't been met at yet, whether it was done on purpose or not.

[Triple Zero]

i think you underestimate (some of) us.

both on the "too abstract"/"not too complicated" part,
and on the circular arguments part that don't evolve in nothing or "right because i said so"

there often enough comes along some smart fellow that hits us over the head with a barstool, pragmatism or even just plain and simple sums up where we've been going so far

we're not here to try and find out who's got the right answer, because nobody is right, we just try to go look for a new answer ourselves, workin from the premise that the more people can actually live with the answer, the better it is

[Ambassador KAOS]

i think you underestimate (some of) us.

both on the "too abstract"/"not too complicated" part,
and on the circular arguments part that don't evolve in nothing or "right because i said so"

there often enough comes along some smart fellow that hits us over the head with a barstool, pragmatism or even just plain and simple sums up where we've been going so far

we're not here to try and find out who's got the right answer, because nobody is right, we just try to go look for a new answer ourselves, workin from the premise that the more people can actually live with the answer, the better it is

Admittedly yes, I am conditioned to believe that all humans R teh dumb.  I'd say I'm still in kind of in shock of discovering a community of people who can exchange ideas on the pretentious level and still find the value in punching eachother squarly in the genitals (at least verbally) and ripping apart good ideas to shreds and then take the confetti to recofigure the information into something it was hopefully never intended to be.  I appologize for that.  Please understand that I have 25 years of experience that states that this is not a common thing, and like you said it's only "some of us" and even then, I'd argue that anyone can be caught with their pants down, the real question then being then, how they deal with it from there. 
I disagree wholeheartedly, however, that the more people who can live the answer the better as every answer is likely to be usefull to existence at some point (I'm pretty certain a lot of jews coulda lived without the holocaust idea [ba doom tsh... start the fire now...] but existence seeme to think it was usefull for the time being, much like many other shitty things in history), but I do prefer to hang around people that like the same or similar answers I do.  This breeds a tendancy in me to want to play nice with others (in relative not literal way ) so that I have more rescources from which to draw from collectively.  Besides, resistance is futile, I saw it on TV...
And that is why you must never take off your tin foil hat.
There may or may not have been a point in there.
AKK

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Admittedly yes, I am conditioned to believe that all humans R teh dumb. 

Welcome to the monkey house.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So over all I feel that the premise of the book failed for me.  being that in some forum I read that it was designed to revisit the PD and bring it in to a more up to date format.  Sure there are more pop culture references (like cell phonesz nad web pages) that are "more modern" but the term "bowling alley" is still understood and until what it is is lost in time I think the term works just fine as opposed to saying that Eris was discovered at an internet cafe or whatever futuristic hop might exist when the term bowling alley is no longer understood.  Even then, we can still figure out the shit in shakespear with a few cliff notes so I say that the idea of updating it is shinanigans.  It's not necessary, and even if it was, the message of the story of the discover of eris is the same whether it be a bowling alley, disney land, an internet cafe or your mothers basement.
On a different note however, this book does tread into some new territory and makes it valuable unto itself.  I think the premise should be changed rather to using the PD as a luanching pad for this book, not to make it the PD rediscovered and repackaged with one of 6 coloful prizes inside. (collect them all!)
I also read in some other forum commentary that this thing was really a bummer.  Maybe in some spots, but I think that what the real problem is is not that it is at all depressing, because if you read the PD it too certainly covers depressing crap, is that it doesn't engage/solicit a thought response as much as it accuses(elliciting a negative response in the reader), which of course was the genious of the PD.  I think it's a well defined fact that everyone believes they are superior in some way especially if they are one of the sheep you are trying to reach via this pamphlet. It's bred into their thinking to make them think they are special so that they don't question authority and complacently accept the fates they are handed and instead indulge in what is deemed to be fit for them.  This allows them to build their own BIP by believing that their is vastly superior and also disarm the intellectual bomb you hand them with the BIP as inferior as they have already convinced themsleves that they are happy in their own BIP and you are now a jerk (in their mind) for disrupting that.  I think a good chunk should be rewritten to point at these things and let the reader discover it for themselves, thinking now that they are instead the genious and not you for writing it to begin with.  They don't care about you, they care about how "teh awesome" they are and they need you to reinforce that until they feel comfortable letting you infect their head, and they, the audience is who you are writing this for no matter how much one tries to delude themself into thinking they are making art for art's sake or just for personal reasons...  Quite simply, who wants to stick around for something that's not a good time?

That brings me to another point, which actually contradicts that last point.  People enjoy suffering.  They revel in it and as far as history has ever recorded human existence is measured in misery, not dollars and cents.  They feel it makes them special and thus justifies that they know how best to create their own BIP because *you* couldn't possibly undertand (and the truth is you can't).  Little do most people know that they are indeed not independant and really have no real measure of control over anything (touching on the whole fish tank segment in BIP, the fish doesn't know it's wet, etc.) and people who do think that they are independant are in the very least slaves of some defunct economist.  The simple truth is you will not eat unless you do someone else's bidding, it's just a measure of how much shit your willing to swallow.  Even assuming the best of circumstances, that you inherrit tax free airable land and are trained to reap what you sew early on in life, if you do this you will have time for little else (the more you struggle to survive the tighter the girdle gets) and eventually some jerk will come along and kill you and take your shit becuase you have it and he doesn't, which is how we end up with surplus anyhow, by fucking other people out of what they have rightfully worked for.  If, on the other hand, you suck the corperate cock and pay your taxes you get a measure of protection afforded to you because, as a tool, you pay these people in dues of your own personal dignity and strongarm money(commonly known as taxes).  In return they allow you certain freedoms, in this instance the ability to write a book that slams them (the BIP).
The thing is why be so angry about it?  You are still choosing to do these things.  You choose to reject or embrace the scenario for your own ends anyhow.  The only way things might be different is if the world took to our personal ideals as a paradigm , in which case your ideals would be impressed on someone else who didn't want them and they in turn would right the BIP instead of you.  reality exists as it must and under the best possible circumastances, and if you  don't think so, keep in mind that a positive attitude will solve many of your problems, and the ones it doesn't solve will be made up for in the joy how many you people you piss off with a big ignorant shit eating grin on your face. People are a product of their environment as well as being masters of their fates.  It that dynamism that keeps life interesting.  That is why any of us are still alive, because we want to see what happens next ... to see just how fucked up this life shit can get, like a kid jumping in the seat of the scariest rollercoaster, and much like the kid, the memory and excitement will fade in time, like the wonderfull cup of coffee you had 2 monday mornings ago.  It just doesn't seem relavent to think about it once you've enjoyed it now does it?  Gotta love human nature and it's absurdity.
This leads me into a further ramble whch may just be the point of all this other rambling, we'll find out...
I tend to think that life doesn't suck so bad.  Sure it bites, but it has to.  A certain ammount of grief is necessary in life.  Without it there would be no basis for comparrison and you wouldn't even know if you were having fun (...and maybe you don't and suffer(?) from malaise).  The duality of existence is much what makes it exciting and fun.  I have a private theory that states you signed up for this life and you are getting absolutely everything you asked for and wanted in the deal, including depression, tragedy, pain and suffering. 
"BUT THAT IS COLD! Do you mean to tell me that some 14 year old girl really wanted to get raped and that the fetus really wanted to die at birth and kill it's own mother in the process!"
Yeah, actually.  And here's why.  When you die, no matter what happens afterword you won't care about what happened in life.  It will cease to matter just like that rollercoaster from when you were 8, as matter of fact, now that you're in your mid fifties that rollercoaster idea isn't sounding so hot and exciting anymore... maybe I'll just pass this round out...
being violently murdered, abused or what not will not matter in the grand scheme of things no matter what happens when you die, and you won't care.  If you are reincarnated, you won't remember, if you are void and cease to exist, it won't matter and if you go to some heaven or hell after life you are likely to be preoccupied with whatever you are doing (like you are now) and whatver happened in life, still, won't matter, you still won't care.  Maybe in some brief flash of nostalgic memeory, like that nice cup of coffee from 2 mondays ago, but you won't really care.  In this respect, mankind will approach beginning solving all his problems when he ceaes to take life so seriously.  I restated that from the PD beause I also believe that the very nature of existence makes it so that problems are necessary as part of the experience and there is no real way to solve them, as is illustrated by the bit about eris on the radio.

I'll end with an emphasis on my point that is drawn from Hitch hiker's Guide though loosely translated here...

the richest men in all the universe commissioned to have their own custom built paradise planets built to specification for maximum enjoyment.  At the end of the day these men found that they were still depressed no matter how many virgins  fed them hand peeled grapes a day, usually over something as trivial as the sky being the wrong shade of pink as the sun set after an otherwise perfect day of relaxing.
What can be learned here?  Mankind has no friggen clue what it wants.  That is part of the game, people are fickle and dumb, including you and I.  It's also what keeps us alive (steven hawkings: "it is not clear that intelligence is connected with long term survivability.")... the need to seek out new shit.  If you want people to really be influenced by the BIP, appeal to that.  My grandfather, the lord of all quotes, often plaugerized an old saying "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but you can catch 10 times as many than both combined with a big steaming pile of horse shit."
Because Fuck them, and that's why.
Ambassador KLOK KAOS

PS I noticed a bit about people being randomly quoted for insertion in some rant based section of the forum on BIP for possible.  I don' have any qualms with this but if anything I have to say is to go into print I do want to have it run by me first so I can see it in context because I am egotistical.

PSS I followed an old link to BIP and the pages weren't in order (maybe they weren't supposed to be?) so if my impression is coming from an outdated verrsion, please flame me incessently for my ignorance and send me a link to the new one which is actually meatspinners in disguise.  I would love that.  It would be educational.  Do it for the children.

Will read this when it is rendered readable with paragraph breaks, etc.

You know what your problem is, AK?

[Ambassador KAOS]

Admittedly yes, I am conditioned to believe that all humans R teh dumb. 

Welcome to the monkey house.

*Picks fleas off of self and eats them*

[Ambassador KAOS]

Will read this when it is rendered readable with paragraph breaks, etc.

You know what your problem is, AK?

NEVAR!!!!!
I refuse to use to gooding grammarishness for the sake of the people attempting to understand my dribble.  LMNO said something about possibly putting in paragraph breaks and reposting select segments somewhere else though.  Maybe that will be less of an eyesore

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Will read this when it is rendered readable with paragraph breaks, etc.

You know what your problem is, AK?

NEVAR!!!!!
I refuse to use to gooding grammarishness for the sake of the people attempting to understand my dribble.  LMNO said something about possibly putting in paragraph breaks and reposting select segments somewhere else though.  Maybe that will be less of an eyesore

Okay.  I just won't bother with your threads, then.

[Thurnez Isa]

rog
you could always just wait 11 posts

[The Good Reverend Roger]

rog
you could always just wait 11 posts

I AM waiting 11 more posts.

TGRR,
Can hardly fucking wait.