Felix on societal futurism

[Triple Zero]

Of course, going by your own argument, technological benefits cannot be used to their full potential without cultural change.  Which suggests that may be a better area of focus 

What exactly did the wink signify?

i think it was a sort of half-reference to the second manifesto of PFLD

(cain, please correct me if i'm wrong)

[Cain]

Not as such, it was just me...winking. 

Also, Felix, have you considered enforcing anything can sometimes lead to negative consequences?  I don't particularly want to respect sexual predators, Republicans, murderers, war profiteers, Jihadi terrorists, Christian fundmentalists and a whole host of other people.  Respect cannot be enforced, it can only be given a setting where it can have the chance to be fostered.

[East Coast Hustle]

ECH, is anything less than an aspritual technocratic respectocracy a likely candidate for utopia?

perhaps not, but my point was that human nature seems to make an ascension to that state of being a practical impossibility. You can't get people to stop acting like animals until you get people to stop acting like animals, or something like that.

on a more personal level, I LIKE the messy aspects of human nature. That's what gives us art. but that's secondary to the thrust of the discussion.

[Jasper]

Cain, you make a point.  Respect has to be mutual for it to have merit as a way of conducting oneself.  Also, respect can vary in degrees from total admiration to mere acknowlegement.  Respect is expressed on many levels, and I think that even an acknowlegement of equality would be a large large step in the direction I'm looking.

ECH, I agree that we're far off of that road.  However, think about how things used to be, and how much faster things are getting better.  I also believe that the messiness will stay no matter what the social climate is.  Respect will likely never be 100% all the time, but even having eliminated institutionalized forms of disrespect and shaping a society that values the outlined principles I would consider utopian.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

ECH, is anything less than an aspritual technocratic respectocracy a likely candidate for utopia?

There is NO candidate for Utopia.

And thank fucking "Bob" for THAT.

Think of the main implication of Utopia, Felix.  What is it?

[Jasper]

Can't be done if we don't agree on what utopia means.

[Cain]

It means a perfect working society, to me.  One where the major struggles for equality, justice, good governance, accountability etc are finally put to rest and there are maybe only minor issues left to solve

The problem is, people like us, would get bored in seconds.  You might say "oh. boredom, is that all" but it would be highly demoralizing.  Some of may become fanatics, even though our system may be the best, there is still little good reason to enforce it on others.  In short, any Utopian system would be a victory for order.  "Good" order, maybe, but order nonetheless.  Thats one of my reasons for disliking anarchy, for its presumption of total natural harmony and order.  All Utopian systems are Greyface by proxy.  On a metaphysical level.  If they are seen as ideals to strive towards, in order to maintain more freedom and justice, then they are part of a greater dialectic and that is good.  But when people try to accomplish them, well....

[AFK]

You'll drag me and my bloodline kicking and screaming into this Utopia, just sayin.

[Jasper]

People like us?

What's us?

Anyway, the boredom factor doesn't really consider that it would be a society based upon entertaining oneself and others, since robots would be doing all the labor we find boring.

[Jasper]

You'll drag me and my bloodline kicking and screaming into this Utopia, just sayin.

In all reality, I don't see this kind of thing ocurring within our natural lives.  The inheritors of this society would be raised gradually into it, and therefore find it much more accomodating.