the matrix is solved

[Payne]

I think so too, but while millions might have bought into the concept, I don't think too many of them will be predisposed to listen to our arguments about OUR views on reality.

But hey, however weak it is, and even if it only works on a tiny percentage of the audience, its still another reference point we didn't have before! We didn't even have to pay $65M for it.

[AFK]

I think so too, but while millions might have bought into the concept, I don't think too many of them will be predisposed to listen to our arguments about OUR views on reality.

But hey, however weak it is, and even if it only works on a tiny percentage of the audience, its still another reference point we didn't have before! We didn't even have to pay $65M for it.

Not unless we get a distribution deal.  I think this may be a sort of quality vs. quantity argument.  The Matrix addresses quantity as far as reaching people and your more scholarly, intellectual literature addresses quality.  If you could somehow split the difference you'd be gold.  But, how the fuck does one do that? 

[Cramulus]

Yeah sure the Matrix isn't at the leading edge of philosophy, but what did you expect from a summer blockbuster?

Also, the Matrix II in part addressed my hot-button discussion, the idea of Free Will vs Determinism. Though I thought it was pretty campy, I liked the symbolism, references, and ideas they tried to get into.

A few things I really dug--

• the name of the hero's ship was the Logos. The implication is that Reason is the tool which will help us sort out all these sticky modern issues.
• the captain of the Vigilant's name was Soren, which I took to represent Soren Kierkegaard. Kierkegaard talks about one's responsibility to do what one thinks is right even if it seems stupid or wrong or dangerous, which is one of the central themes of the movies.
• The venture to meet the merovingian (sp? - you know, the french dude) was every descent into the underworld found in classic mythology.
• I like post-human robot vs human stories in general

there were some other things I liked, but they don't come to mind.

I find that a lot of people dis on the matrix because it tried to be deep and wasn't. But again, I think they're missing the point. If the Wachowskis made an action movie about philosophical discussions which would intrigue intellectuals, I doubt the mainstream crowd would go see it (see: waking life, which despite its merits I'm sure supposedly well-read people felt was too philosophy 101 as well).

Conclusion: if you liked where the Matrix was going but wish it did a better job of it, read The Invisibles.

[Idem]

how about that what do you think the correct formula of energy is?

forget it energie =a mixture of ying and yang
energy is one the one side you put energy into it and other the other side you chill


if you want to be successful in dating ugly girls you gotta flash them you gotta scare them they gotta scream i don't know with what and then you gotta relax

every girl that is fascinated by you or your intelligence and somehow weird looking guy is going to come if you wait on that

what

[Payne]

Yes ultimately I would have to agree with that assessment, it depends on who we actually want to waken up. It seems to me that bringin more people into this discussion is something that is much better done face to face.

On that individual basis, we can use the Matrix meme for some, the denser literature for others and so forth. Unfortunately, I feel that it would be damn near impossible to combine the two (as you've already stated RWHN) without it being a huge dose of fail.

As a handle for one on one conversation with someone though, I think it's handy to have the Matrix, though obviously, you couldn't rely on that alone.

[LMNO]

Also, let's not forget that the philisophical premise is bullshit.

Yes, the sensations we percieve are not direct experience.

Yes, it is entirely possible that all of this is an illusion.

Yes, this could mean that all of the intricate physics we have derived from scientific experimentation could be bogus.


BUT SO FUCKING WHAT?  DOES KNOWING THAT WHAT I CONSIDER REALITY TO BE MIGHT BE ENTIRELY FALSE HELP ME IN SURVIVING ON THIS BACKWARDS MUDBALL FILLED WITH PSYCHOPATHIC MONKEYS?


No.




It doesn't.


Because there is no red pill anywhere.

Eh, but the red pill issue is a, well, red herring.  Sometimes it's enough to be aware...the solution may not be reachable, may not EXIST even (defeatism ftl), but still.  Going that much further out of oblivion is sometimes just enough.

But the hypothesis itself is unprovable, which means that it is essentially meaningless.  The only answer to this questions is, as a famous writer once said, "If we agree that life is more than a dream, that our consciousness dwells in a universe that includes things other than itself, then what is the nature of those things?"


Simply put, the only way out is a leap of faith, and an exploration of what can be understood.  "Brain in a jar" hypotheses are the intellectual equivalent of "God/Satan did it."

[Cramulus]

But the hypothesis itself is unprovable, which means that it is essentially meaningless.  The only answer to this questions is, as a famous writer once said, "If we agree that life is more than a dream, that our consciousness dwells in a universe that includes things other than itself, then what is the nature of those things?"


Simply put, the only way out is a leap of faith, and an exploration of what can be understood.  "Brain in a jar" hypotheses are the intellectual equivalent of "God/Satan did it."

It's not meaningless if the discussion that it evokes has merit.

I don't think that I'm a brain in a jar, but the thought processes used to examine that hypothesis lead to a healthy dose of self-examination and skepticism.

[AFK]

It has merit as long as you don't get lost in the discussion.  Something that depending on your perspective has happened here on occassion. 

[P3nT4gR4m]

As a handle for one on one conversation with someone though, I think it's handy to have the Matrix, though obviously, you couldn't rely on that alone.

That's where I rest my case. Matrix - massive plus. Gives a useful meme to describe complicated metaphysic. This is the most any film, work of art or ideological movement will ever accomplish.

There is no single act or work of man that will enlighten anyone and pursuing such a ludicrous ideal is doomed to failure. If you don't believe me, fine, go write another bible, see if I (or anyone else) cares

[Jenne]

But the hypothesis itself is unprovable, which means that it is essentially meaningless.  The only answer to this questions is, as a famous writer once said, "If we agree that life is more than a dream, that our consciousness dwells in a universe that includes things other than itself, then what is the nature of those things?"


Simply put, the only way out is a leap of faith, and an exploration of what can be understood.  "Brain in a jar" hypotheses are the intellectual equivalent of "God/Satan did it."

The point is not always to make a theory or an idea provable.  Ideas can be infinite in scope in order to just open up that hatch and get the motor running.  Why ruin a good enough (like that modifier?) meme just because it's not backed up with things you KNOW?

And when the fuck did that even MATTER?  The thing is, most science fictional themes are what-if at best.  But they also tap into the deepest, darkest parts of our psychologies.  That makes them golden (or pyrite at least) and therefore useful. 

Mental exercise is NOT something you get from most people believe you me.  It's hard to believe hanging out here, but most just look at the Matrix as a nice little story with cool effects.  The utility of this type of movie is exactly what has been pointed out:  exposure to ideas that wouldn't necessarily be there before...a shortcut as you will for people who are movitvated to shake others up out of their everyday type of existences.

Besides...even the "God/Satan did it" has its uses.

[LMNO]

But at that point, you're just in a race to see who can get to the top of Mount Cleverest first.



I fully admit that I'm incredibly guilty of this, but if all you're doing is debating the worth or validity of an unprovable theory, aren't you basically mutually masturbating each other?

[Jenne]

But at that point, you're just in a race to see who can get to the top of Mount Cleverest first.



I fully admit that I'm incredibly guilty of this, but if all you're doing is debating the worth or validity of an unprovable theory, aren't you basically mutually masturbating each other?

I'm asking what is the problem with mental stimulation in the first place?  I thought that was the  main point.  Why else read fiction?

[LMNO]

000 was talking about using the Matrix as a shorthand to explain BIP principles.

I feel that the Matrix doesn't do this. 

Then Silly called me an intellectual snob.


It sort of went downhill from there.

[Payne]

You are right in a big way, looking back to where this started. With the Matrix being such a recognisable mass-culture meme, there is a definate problem with people having the kneejerk reaction to ignore/laugh at you. Like you were a guy that called yourself a Jedi or walked around in Star Trek uniforms speaking Klingon.

However, isn't it feasible that in trying to kick off a thought process you could say "well you know that idea in the Matrix, how we're all living in an artificially generated world? Well how about we talk about ...."

Actually I agree with you the more I write this post. I think that the people who caught onto that part of the Matrix were probably predisposed to anyway, and wouldn't need that kind of coaching to catch on to the rest of our ideas.

~~~Payne: joining LMNO in intellectual snobbery

[Jenne]

Perhaps...but even still, why  not use something if it does the job more widely.  Are you saying you wouldn't want the people who'd be caught through a faulty (quote/unquote) meme such as The Matrix?

You have to be careful with that kind of logic, I think.