the matrix is solved

[LMNO]

Hold on.

I would welcome someone who came in here, saying, "Hey, I just saw the Matrix, and man!  that was 5 kinds of mind-blowing awesome!"


Because then, we could all show them what mind-blowing awesome really is.

[P3nT4gR4m]

But at that point, you're just in a race to see who can get to the top of Mount Cleverest first.



I fully admit that I'm incredibly guilty of this, but if all you're doing is debating the worth or validity of an unprovable theory, aren't you basically mutually masturbating each other?

You saying there is anything more? Evar?

Think about it - you 'liberate' some poor soul from BIP - what then? They were already using their biology, the real stuff, now they've opened their mind. The only place to go is intellectual. Isn't 'intellectual' the antidote to bip? It is for me - my intellect is the only thing that makes it all bearable (well that and the odd blowjob)

[Payne]

Well, you do have a point. It's not so much that I wouldn't want them, it's just that I feel that the people who weren't already caught by the meme themselves, without input from us, would be less likely to accept it. Meaning that a more effective "opening salvo" meme should be sought out for these people.

If they've already caught the meme, then we shouldn't need to repeat it, and another, more advanced meme can be handed to them.

However, I realise that that is a very rocky road to go down as well, as it would seem to encourage some form of predjudice.

Putting it in my own context, I could see the basic premise of the movie as being, fundamentally, a prison of perception. With the obvious parallel in the B.I.P. However, I am also aware of how much bullshit and sensationalism was included in the movies, not to mention the Messianic story prevalant in the last two movies, and feel that that extra baggage could well have turned me off of reading the B.I.P.

However someone I know very well, with a great deal of respect for and would love to see posting here would consider me some kind of bizzarre matrix groupie if I even attempted to include in a conversation I hoped to be about the B.I.P. and reference to the Matrix.

[LMNO]

You saying there is anything more? Evar?

Think about it - you 'liberate' some poor soul from BIP - what then? They were already using their biology, the real stuff, now they've opened their mind. The only place to go is intellectual. Isn't 'intellectual' the antidote to bip? It is for me - my intellect is the only thing that makes it all bearable (well that and the odd blowjob)

First, please recall there is no escape/liberation.



Second, the point, as I see it, isn't to spend your time jerking off.  The point of it is to make real-world changes to your life and you mentality, and how you interact with your reality.

You can't escape your prison, but you can change how it affects you.  And doing that changes how you affect reality.

Then comes the somatic feedback loop.






What, you thought this was all just mental hopscotch?

[guest7654]

ITT = The Path of Illumination

But srsly, I was gonna say what LMNO just did...how many people started searching beyond their Bars^tm after they saw this movie.

But at that point, you're just in a race to see who can get to the top of Mount Cleverest first.



I fully admit that I'm incredibly guilty of this, but if all you're doing is debating the worth or validity of an unprovable theory, aren't you basically mutually masturbating each other?

You saying there is anything more? Evar?

Think about it - you 'liberate' some poor soul from BIP - what then? They were already using their biology, the real stuff, now they've opened their mind. The only place to go is intellectual. Isn't 'intellectual' the antidote to bip? It is for me - my intellect is the only thing that makes it all bearable (well that and the odd blowjob)

What about people who are too slow or too busy to trouble themselves with all this?  This is when God/Satan theory comes in handy...

[P3nT4gR4m]

Hold on.

I would welcome someone who came in here, saying, "Hey, I just saw the Matrix, and man!  that was 5 kinds of mind-blowing awesome!"


Because then, we could all show them what mind-blowing awesome really is.

It's all stepping stones, innit? Growing up as I did there ware shitloads of really 'quantum leap' kinda events in my life. Books, movies, conversations, songs...

You traverse these one at a time (pupil is ready teacher appears) There's absolutely no point in trying to explain weighty existentialist topics to someone who doesn't doesn't understand really basic stuff like how to tie their shoelaces. So you teach the shoelace thing first.

I never said any movie could bring about samadhi but, by the same token, until you learn to tie shoelaces it prolly aint gonna happen for ya either. Given this angle could you possibly reassess the function that this movie potentially serves to the people who are just at the point of being ready to understand the illusion of the senses? Think more 'tip over the edge' than 'spelling it out'. Think of things that seem dumb now but, if you hadn't been exposed to them round about when you were, it'd taken a lot longer to get to where you are now.

[P3nT4gR4m]

What, you thought this was all just mental hopscotch?

It is for me. When I had exhausted all other avenues of interest  mental hopscotch was what came next. Consciousness is the only realm left for me to explore. It's also the least explored realm in terms of overall humanity . I know as much about the physical realm as I care to know. Not to take away anything from the people who are still exploring it. Scientific advancement, outer space... Lots of good shit and I enjoy my PS3 and healthy sex life as much as the next guy but it's my mind where I'm constantly discovering new and exciting ways to experience my manifestation.

I Chris Columbussed my own brain - sailed clear off the edge 

[Jenne]

Christopher Columbus = discoverer of territory millions already knew existed  (from The Simpsons)

[Cain]

I'm with LMNO.  The Matrix is nothing more than another symptom of the Spectacle, and of Judeo-Christian (Platonic) thinking.  The fact is, we already live in a society that takes it for granted that there are transcendent realities and values.  Its the whole basis of Platonic metaphysics and the "greatest slander" against the earth that Nietzsche wrote so passionately about.

The question itself leads back to a sense of passivity and the converse question (what if this is the only reality) is never asked.  Imagery detatches from everyday life and becomes a form of amusement, or entertainment for the masses.  The logical conclusion becomes not to live life, but to observe it, to be part of the audience instead of being up on the stage.

I'd add more, but I had to go out and so am still figuring out my piece for Aftermath.

However, one final piece: much of the Matrix story was stolen directly from the Ong's Hat papers.  Whats more interesting is that the papers actually did a far better job in coming to conclusions and also overcoming the problems of Platonic metaphysics (namely because they never denied this world as real - but read the papers for more).

[LMNO]

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One of these days, I'm gonna post something as well-written as this.










LMNO
-giving Cain a handjob under the table.

[Cain]

Um, thats a banana in my pocket....

[LMNO]

That's a relief.  I was wondering why that baboon was sniffing your crotch.

[Cramulus]

just for the record, I've kind of lost track of what this is all about.

I think that at this stage we're talking about whether or not the Matrix is a good meme to build upon for BIP purposes?

I'm with LMNO.  The Matrix is nothing more than another symptom of the Spectacle, and of Judeo-Christian (Platonic) thinking.  The fact is, we already live in a society that takes it for granted that there are transcendent realities and values.  Its the whole basis of Platonic metaphysics and the "greatest slander" against the earth that Nietzsche wrote so passionately about.

I disagree. I don't think average Joe spends any time pondering what's outside of his perceptual prison. The closest most people get to lateral thinking about transcendence is arguing about religion. And that's usually rather simple. If you discount anything that's a "symptom of Judeo-Christian / platonic thinking" then I'm not sure what you could hold up as a good road sign.

The question itself leads back to a sense of passivity and the converse question (what if this is the only reality) is never asked.  Imagery detatches from everyday life and becomes a form of amusement, or entertainment for the masses.  The logical conclusion becomes not to live life, but to observe it, to be part of the audience instead of being up on the stage.

I think the "what if this is the only reality" question was kind of outside the scope of the movie. But I suspect you weren't talking about the Matrix there. sorry, just trying to follow along

However, one final piece: much of the Matrix story was stolen directly from the Ong's Hat papers.  Whats more interesting is that the papers actually did a far better job in coming to conclusions and also overcoming the problems of Platonic metaphysics (namely because they never denied this world as real - but read the papers for more).

That's cool, hadn't heard of Ong's Hat. Wikipedia's entry wasn't terribly revealing - can you post or link to elaboration?

[Cain]

I disagree. I don't think average Joe spends any time pondering what's outside of his perceptual prison.

I agree.  However, society is overwhelmingly still Judeo-Christian, on an implicit level.  Therein lies the problem.

The closest most people get to lateral thinking about transcendence is arguing about religion. And that's usually rather simple. If you discount anything that's a "symptom of Judeo-Christian / platonic thinking" then I'm not sure what you could hold up as a good road sign.

One that doesn't attach non-existent meanings and purpose to things that have none.  "Existence precedes essence" is a good one, though certainly once I've had a real nights sleep I can probably do better.

I think the "what if this is the only reality" question was kind of outside the scope of the movie. But I suspect you weren't talking about the Matrix there. sorry, just trying to follow along

Indeed, it wasn't.  Again, that is, to me, part of the problem.  That this world is less real, less perfect etc than another imagined world is essentially giving people carte blanche to slander everything that is human, denying it in the name of "higher goals".

That's cool, hadn't heard of Ong's Hat. Wikipedia's entry wasn't terribly revealing - can you post or link to elaboration?

www.incunabula.org  The main catalogue should do the trick.

[DJRubberducky]

That's a relief.  I was wondering why that baboon was sniffing your crotch.

Actually, it's an orangutan:



(And actually, that's my husband in the picture.  Portland Zoo, July 2003.)