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Core Themes of Discordia

Started by Cramulus, May 22, 2007, 05:39:13 PM

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Shinigami715

The core elements of Discordianism, as far as i can tell...


Are that it is not Dada, with no meaning in our creation, but more Chaos, without intended meaning, though there is ALWAYS meaning. If art has no meaning, the world has no meaning, but if art means fish, then the Cao is pleased.

And thats what it all revolves around. Puns that revolve around meaning, that revolve around other puns, ultimately leading to a complex definition of a double entendre universe. It is in constant conflict with the world of SET definition, or Order, but at the same time, could not exist without it. Its also based on cultural and social circumstances that also have double meanings. This is part of a little Discordian vortex i call the Quintuple Entendre. It could be called "Literary Numerology", but instead of the Order-based numerology, theres nothing that QE really revolves around, like 23, or any real POINT to understanding it. Its purpose is mostly to be funny, and discordians would consider it a religion, because a discordian, when truly wrapped and warped in the Goddess' embrace, would find EVERYTHING funny.

Case and point... A penis is a organ, so someone would say "Im gonna go play my organ ..."  The first entendre. Its not something we wouldnt see somewhere on the forums. Then someone would say "Im gonna play my KAZOO!!!" Same idea, but then, not really, because at that point he might not be talking about the same thing, or he might just say it to be FUNNY. Then "If he plays his kazoo, im gonna kill a motherfucker." The leap still hasnt been made, because he could still be talking about either masturbating, or playing an actual kazoo. The difference here, is that now theres the issue of someone actually being mad, or just fucking around, or whatever. The more intentions, the more possiblities for the next move. Then, "IMMA GO ALL REDNECK ON YOUR ASSES AND PULL OUT MY BANJO." Fourth entendre, allowing for great WTFing and giving the greatest number of possibilities for the fifth entendre. Lets say it was "IMM GO ALL BANJO ON YOUR ASSES AND PULL OUT MY REDNECK." The fifth entendre allows for great lulz, while also being a 'religious' practice.


So basically, ambiguity is a big discordian theme. You wouldn't think it by looking at us, but we're COY motherfuckers.

LMNO

Shin, I like the majority of your post, as it reminds us that, apart from the pseudo-philosophy of the OP, the Lulz should be recognized as important; not only that, but you seemed to hone in on the kind of lail we tend to enjoy.

However, the entire post was almost derailed by the opening salvo, simply because of what looks like a misunderstanding.

Dada, as an art movement, wasn't based on "no meaning".  It was strongly politically (anti-war) based, and revolved around irrationality and a rejection of the "rules" of art at the time (early 1900s).

While I suppose you could argue that since the "rules" of art placed a value on the "meaning" of the piece, then Dada was art without meaning, I feel that only meant "meaning" in a very limited, traditional sense.  The Dadists created with a purpose, a "meta-meaning" if you will.


Anyway, apart from that, good post.

AFK

So does this mean we have another punner on the boards?   :mrgreen:

Sweet!
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Shinigami715

Quote from: LMNO on August 15, 2007, 12:59:00 PM

While I suppose you could argue that since the "rules" of art placed a value on the "meaning" of the piece, then Dada was art without meaning, I feel that only meant "meaning" in a very limited, traditional sense.  The Dadists created with a purpose, a "meta-meaning" if you will.


Thats how i look at it. Plus, whenever i meet a Neo-Dadist, i can safely assume they have no intention for anything, at all, ever... but its debatable. Dada was PROBABLY not the best example, but i couldnt think of anyone who made less sense off the cuff.

And i knew that opening line would keep people from reading the rest of a n00bs post. Thank you for getting past it.

QE IS MUCH WIN! *writes note to self on how to WIN for further occasions.*

LMNO

Considering a "Neo-Dadist" wouldn't have much of an opinion on WWI, I would have to agree with you.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: LMNO on August 15, 2007, 12:59:00 PM

Dada, as an art movement, wasn't based on "no meaning".  It was strongly politically (anti-war) based, and revolved around irrationality and a rejection of the "rules" of art at the time (early 1900s).

While I suppose you could argue that since the "rules" of art placed a value on the "meaning" of the piece, then Dada was art without meaning, I feel that only meant "meaning" in a very limited, traditional sense.  The Dadists created with a purpose, a "meta-meaning" if you will.

One of the other intents of Dada seems to have involved breaking down the separation between the artist and the audience. To make the artist and audience a inextricable mix, where the audience itself was necessary to the creation of the art. Rather than the art being presented to the audience, the art existed in the neurological system of the audience, the audience's consciousness because the canvas and the "dada works" became the brushes and the pigment.

This seems very similar to how many Discordians feel about their "religious rituals" ;-)

- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

LMNO

yeah.

Considering Shin's response, i think we all generally agree on that.

Which means I'm still puzzled about that second paragraph.

Shinigami715

Quote from: Ratatosk on August 15, 2007, 03:18:10 PM
Quote from: LMNO on August 15, 2007, 12:59:00 PM

Dada, as an art movement, wasn't based on "no meaning".  It was strongly politically (anti-war) based, and revolved around irrationality and a rejection of the "rules" of art at the time (early 1900s).

While I suppose you could argue that since the "rules" of art placed a value on the "meaning" of the piece, then Dada was art without meaning, I feel that only meant "meaning" in a very limited, traditional sense.  The Dadists created with a purpose, a "meta-meaning" if you will.

One of the other intents of Dada seems to have involved breaking down the separation between the artist and the audience. To make the artist and audience a inextricable mix, where the audience itself was necessary to the creation of the art. Rather than the art being presented to the audience, the art existed in the neurological system of the audience, the audience's consciousness because the canvas and the "dada works" became the brushes and the pigment.

This seems very similar to how many Discordians feel about their "religious rituals" ;-)



The more i think about it, Dada was a terrible example... I have my biases about Dada, and the results of the artistic movement always left me very unsatisfied, and i felt the movement sort of ate itself while trying to accomplish its goals... At the same time, Discordian is the same, the difference being that we've survived with alot more credibility. I guess i've been thinking about Dada the way most people think of Discordianism, and i think i might be doing myself a great disservice.

My POINT with the statement, was the Discordianism has meaning without intention, and follows up with meaning and LESS intention, resulting in a very flexible meme. Dada, on the other hand, is little meaning, with ALOT of intention, and is very inflexible, and usually does not result anything like a meme. (Ironic, because the one that isnt really TRYING to do anything gets around, while the one trying to change things cant move at all)

Though, considering pop art, and Warhol's artistic juxtaposition of everyday things, and then the juxtaposition of his art into everyday LIFE, and then those lives put on screen, and that art being used to define characters... Pop Art seems alot more viral, and alot more Discordian. If there was some kind of combination of the mindfuckery of Dada and the virality of pop art, we'd either end up with Discordian art, or just fucking Discordianism, which some of us already consider an artform. (In which case, we need to start a fucking art revolution. Theres money in that shit)

Also, where's the ole' Professor? I wanna know if i thinks QE and Lulz are actually themes of Disco, or just a side effect.

Cramulus

Quote from: Shinigami715 on August 15, 2007, 11:55:46 PM
Also, where's the ole' Professor? I wanna know if i thinks QE and Lulz are actually themes of Disco, or just a side effect.

            Being THE AUTHORITY on Discordja,
           I'm glad you asked me that, Shinigami.
                                 /


oh gawdess, just kidding :lulz:

Part of this thread has been examining what's "core" and what's not. Being an incredibly subjective religion, all we have is what we can all agree on. And I think pretty much All Discordians would agree Lulz are part of the "point".

As for the Quintuple Entendre, yeah too. I think confusing games which play with meaning are a pretty Discordian practice. To me. Everyday pedestrian reality is filled with assumptions, and I think it's good work to shake them up now and then.

Here's one of mine:

When in very altered states, I enjoy a conversation game which is impossible to explain in text, much less demonstrate (I'm also breaking a major rule by explaining it straight out). But the basic gist is that as you're speaking, you make abrupt changes of subject, embark on tangents mid sentence, contradict yourself, and then make a completely unrelated point. As the conversation goes on, relate back to previous points to make it sound like there's some grand conclusion you're leading up to. The object is sort of
A) make your listener follow what you're trying to say
B) get them to realize the nature of the game you're playing - without explaining it
C) *bonus points* turn it around on you

I had one guy hanging on my every word as I explained how quantum physics and history are the exact same discipline - and the Muppet Show's recurring themes were actually a cultural replication of Schr??dinger's cat experiment - and that we only perceive things because of the illusion of time - and all sorts of bizarre cutups like that. The trick here is to mix in some actual sense with it so it seems somewhat coherent. (I think we called this the Buffer Overload technique?)

Finally he interrupted me and tried to clarify. After a long diatribe, he finished with something like, "So essentially you're saying that any given particle is the size of an eon." I said, "No, an eon is a unit of time, not space." "No, they're both subjective." Is that what we were really talking about? Jesus... as I wrapped my brain around what he was trying to communicate, I realized he HAD me - I had fallen for his verbal trolling and was trying to make sense out of the gibberish he was saying. It literally knocked me on my ass laughing.

Shinigami715

Quote from: Professor Cramulus on August 16, 2007, 01:44:35 AM
Quote from: Shinigami715 on August 15, 2007, 11:55:46 PM
Also, where's the ole' Professor? I wanna know if i thinks QE and Lulz are actually themes of Disco, or just a side effect.

            Being THE AUTHORITY on Discordja,
           I'm glad you asked me that, Shinigami.
                               


Its your thread, so im guessing you gave it a good 15 seconds more thought than everybody else. Besides, with a name like Professor, i should hold you on an unreasonably high pedestal, like a proper asshat would.

Actually, i was waiting for the, "The n00b turned this into an fsking art discussion."

So really, mindfucks are central to disco, that was pretty much given... And i think lulz are kinda required, for it to be Discordian.



















Quote from: Professor Cramulus on August 16, 2007, 01:44:35 AM

...and the Muppet Show's recurring themes were actually a cultural replication of Schr??dinger's cat experiment...


You saying this not troof?

Cramulus

oh that reminds me. Have you met Dr. Durden?


Paging Dr. Hunter S Durden
                                /

PeregrineBF

I haven't read the whole thread, my HDD died and I'm just getting back to this forum.
Anyway, I think Discordianism is easiest to analyze/define with some concepts from Chaos theory in mathematics.
Most importantly is the concept of a phase space.
A phase space is a representation of a system. Let's take a gas in a box. Each molecule has a position and a velocity, which can be represented by a vector (X, Y, Z position, a, b, c vector end position.) Thus we need 6 dimensions to represent all possible states a molecule can be in. (For position+velocity only, of course.) We can plot the state of a molecule by the movement of a point through this phase space.
Then we add another molecule. That adds 6 more dimensions, so one point can still convey all possible states of the gas.
Eventually the phase space gets really, really big.

Discordianism is the religion of the belief in the phase space of all belief systems. Discordians each believe something different, and we all know it. Some don't admit it, of course, but that's a point in the phase space too. It would be interesting but impractical to model the dynamical system of human belief, but it does SEEM chaotic.

LMNO

Um... yeah.


Wouldn't it be easier to say "all is one", and stop the conversation right there?


Also:  Cram, I do that stuff all the time.  It's usually the only way to keep me interested at parties. 

It's also an ancient SSOOKN technique, also known as "The Semantic Law of Fives Smack Down".

hunter s.durden

I hear my name over a loudspeaker.

This wrests me from an alcoholic binge, which wrested me from a month long sobriety binge. It's why I've been gone.

I'm not quite sure why I've been awakened, or called a doctor for that matter, as I thought the general consensus was "a bum like him don't know shit." When a Professor calls you a doctor, though, you try and deliver. Ego triumphs.

Once again I am confronted with the "really real" reality that has been plaguing me for the last two months. A deluge of surrealist, art major, and nonsensical bullshit has hit, and it's been asserted as some sort of half-assed New-Age philosophical truth. A torrent of "bullshit" and "blah-blah" made over to be a hidden truth, that I will never understand. Oh well, my ramblings aren't much better, perhaps worse.

And so, another n00b stands at the doorstep. A college textbook in hand, and a mind full of revolutionary delusions. I'm forced to be impessed by a lexicon of wisdom and an idealistic attitude. Another in a line of brilliant pupils that have something to teach the impoverished masses. Big words and wannabe actions.

And I weep.
This space for rent.

LMNO

Goddamn.


HST, as your lawyer, I strongly advise you to go on more drinking binges.  It turns you into a poet, man.