Forward Progress

[Cramulus]

check out my edit of Toxicity

http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=Toxicity

history of changes noted here: http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=Toxicity&diff=432&oldid=380


thoughts?

[Triple Zero]

hm this is a direction to go for a shoddy hack, it seems!

let's forget about the subjects of the rants/writings and just throw them all on different piles according to target audience.

(the real "good" stuff can appear in multiple piles, so everybody can have a taste)

what kind of different target audiences can we distinguish?

- everybody
- "fuck the government" anarchist puberty kids
- people who just been screwed over by the government (think medical insurance, or lack thereof)
- jaded discordians
- people who are just angry in general at shit
- mindhackers
- people looking for a "balanced" grid (equilibrium), in a way (put the more zenhippie sort of yes/no/maybe/nothing is true kind of stuff in this category)
- occultists that don't take themselves too seriously
- people who enjoy hiphop (strange to put here like that but i think it's a useful niche, somehow)

please expand on this list. notice i didn't put "MTV kids" or "consumerzombies" in the list, because i generated it from a general idea of "what sort of rants/writings have we had so far", and the consumerzombies usually get operation assfucked, and won't read our stuff anyway, as a consumerzombie.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

hm this is a direction to go for a shoddy hack, it seems!

let's forget about the subjects of the rants/writings and just throw them all on different piles according to target audience.

(the real "good" stuff can appear in multiple piles, so everybody can have a taste)

what kind of different target audiences can we distinguish?

- everybody
- "fuck the government" anarchist puberty kids
- people who just been screwed over by the government (think medical insurance, or lack thereof)
- jaded discordians
- people who are just angry in general at shit
- mindhackers
- people looking for a "balanced" grid (equilibrium), in a way (put the more zenhippie sort of yes/no/maybe/nothing is true kind of stuff in this category)
- occultists that don't take themselves too seriously
- people who enjoy hiphop (strange to put here like that but i think it's a useful niche, somehow)

please expand on this list. notice i didn't put "MTV kids" or "consumerzombies" in the list, because i generated it from a general idea of "what sort of rants/writings have we had so far", and the consumerzombies usually get operation assfucked, and won't read our stuff anyway, as a consumerzombie.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

One thing that appears to have been useful for the PD was current event references as perceived from a nonsensical angle. (The telegraph to Jehova for example, or precious Mao buttons).

Could we find similar current events that might be useful? Something along the lines of

"Mr. Hussein, we've hidden the WMD's in the minds of our enemies. They will never find them now!"

[Triple Zero]

i think we got enough of those references automatically.

no need to put it in on purpose, i think.

also, as i have noted in the past, it tends to make most writings a bit americanocentric. which makes it harder for me to distribute here. almost everybody here can read english fine, but if there's a lot of "american" stuff in there, it makes people think "o this applies not to me, but to those poor sods on the other side of the pond".

[That One Guy]

Part of the problem with "rewriting the PD" is that writing funny shit is fucking hard. Ranting and preaching are much easier to write down and convey emotions via the written word. Funny, however, is more subjective and difficult to convey without additional stimulus (whether it's vocal inflection, images, gestures, or anything else) and tends to be the sticking point for anything we come up with.

I think Prof's parable of the gong did an excellent job of bringing the funny into the conceptual ideas we're trying to update, but writing that kind of thing is ... difficult at best. Humor - even the artful pun - is no easy task to convey in print.

It's a great goal to work for, and definitely something to make an effort to include more of. However, it takes much more effort than a simple rant or sermon (not that those methods are inherently easy - they definitely seem to be easier for US, though) to get a message out there WITH the funny.

[Triple Zero]

i dunno, i've always thought that it's because the average poster who writes rants or essays is more inclined to write rantings and preachings. not that humor is more difficult to write by itself.

in high school i drew lots and lots of cartoons. i had no problem with the funny. the trick is just to write it down anyway, even if it's not funny. you can pick out the best ones later.

[LMNO]

Well, it's not just that it has to be funny, it also has to be funny with a specific purpose.

[That One Guy]

Yes,  I should have been a bit clearer about that - I did, in fact, mean funny with purpose rather than just funny as well as rant with purpose rather than just rant and sermons with purpose rather than just sermons.

Funny with a message is an art form all its own, one that I'm not as well versed with and the style that seems to be least common to the boards here from what I've seen.

[AFK]

Yup.  I think The Funnay is in full effect on these boards, but when it comes time to infuse it with some Discordiansim, it just doesn't seem to happen.  It is really hard.   

[Cramulus]

continuing my response to LMNO's earlier post.

Page 6 (?) is 2nd person, and preachy, and dark.  Perhaps a more positive take?  The theme so far seems to be 70% life sucks, 20% you,Äôre doing nothing about it, and 10% think for yourself.

agreed. Can we bump it up to 50% think for yourself?

here's the part which seems darkest--

Your on your own mate, nobody gives a shit about you or your life.
Everybody you know, have known and will know want something from
you. Your boss, your partner, the guy down the street. All they see
when they look at you is what they can get from you. You do the
same damn thing to them.
Don't give em any of that denial crap, if you spend five seconds being
honest with yourself you'll see I'm right.
It's the great rat race mate, or if your gonna get martial about it,
rattenkrieg. You,Äôre a tool and that's how anybody will ever see you,
even me.

hmmm looking around I can't even find that passage on the BIP wiki. Maybe it got left out?

Page 7 (?) is like a manifesto.  Not much lail, but I think it should stay.

link: http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=Who_wrote_this

yes, the only thing that I would change is the threat at the end.

Instead of

The history of the entire known universe and a long legacy of philosophical and scientific exploration has resulted in this effort to get you to do some critical thinking. And if you turn it down, then we are gonna come get you. And it's gonna hurt.

I'd like to change it to

...And if you turn it down, you're gonna get left behind. You've gotta catch up on your own. Because no one's turning back to save you.

Page 8 (TGRR) is obviously a 2nd person preachy rant.  But it,Äôs ironic satire, and it,Äôs got the most lulz content so far.  Keep it.

link: http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=WHAT_THE_HELL_DO_YOU_THINK_YOU%27RE_DOING

agreed. TGRR's preaching brings the fire & brimstone!

Page 9 (?) is 2nd person, and a bit condescending.  Dump it.

link: http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=What_the_hell_are_you_reading

disagree. Page 9 is the most straightforward piece in the pamphlet.
I'd remove "Despite the fact that most of what you read in here threatens the current system we live in", because it sounds a bit big for its britches.

I think the passage would read better in the third person.

Page 10-11 (?) is 2nd person, and preachy.  Could be made more conversational, and more an explanation of how to throw a wrench in the Machine,Ñ¢ by ,Äúwaking up,Äù.

good call.

I'd ditch the part about dreams of societal reawakening. It works really well if the target audience is purely Discordians. This brings us back to the big Audience question. For now let's try to push it neutral and we can adapt once we've picked an audience.

I also don't like the Kill Yourself Fuck The Body part

Page 12 (TGRR) is like Page 8.  Consider placing further away from previous rant.

link: http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=THERE_IS_NO_CONSPIRACY

good call

Page 13 (?) is 2nd person, dark, and preachy.  Dump it.

agree. I do like it, but it's kind of redundant by page 13.

Pages 14-15 are 2nd person, and intellectually condescending.  But I wrote it, so I want to keep it in there.  Feel free to argue this point.

where I like this passage, I think it would be better if it didn't use physical limitations to explore the metaphor. This passage literally implies that my reality would be cooler if I could be constantly aware of the exact temperature of my shoes, and vague shit in my peripheral vision.

Pages 16-17 (LHX?) are dark, but with a lot of content in the spaces between the words.  I suggest changing the last line, or adding a few more lines to end it differently.

see my previous post on this topic

Pages 18-19 (?) can probably be split between the 1st paragraph and the rest of it.  The premise ,ÄúExistence is not based on the Truth,Äù needs to be explained better.

yes

Page 20 (RWHN) is 2nd person, and preachy.  Also, it doesn,Äôt really say much, just tells the reader they,Äôre sheep.

link: http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=A_Conclusion_is_Simply_Where_You_Stopped_Thinking

"A Conclusion is simply where you stopped thinking" is a really important concept IMO. I think this passage would read better in the third person.

Pages 21-22 (?) are the same.  I get the feeling that when a lot of us were writing this, we were pissed off, and wanted to piss other people off, if for no other reason than to make them feel something.

link: http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=What_Is_It_With_You_People%3F

I vote for cutting this.

Pages 23-24 (ECH) is 2nd person, but mostly talks about themselves, and even offers some advice.  It might need a little cleaning up, but it,Äôs got good content.

link: http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=BIP_Page_23

agree. Could use some cleanup but it's a nice passage. Specifically, I'd strike "here on this website, talking about this goddess".

Page 25-26 (Cain?) has a good point, but ends rather flat.  The narrator isn,Äôt motivated to act, as much of the previous pages have extorted us to do so.  Ending should be revised.

agree - this is a hopeless passage which could end really strong with some Get Off Your Ass NOW!

I also question whether or not humans were rational, even before reality TV. But that's more of a longer content related question than a general cleanup/streamlining.

Page 27 (?) states the problem well, but skimps when it comes to the solution.  More of that, please.

link: http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=Life_Without_Fences

agree

[LMNO]

Tomorrow I'll talk about pages 14-15. 

[Triple Zero]

here's the part which seems darkest--

Your on your own mate, nobody gives a shit about you or your life.
Everybody you know, have known and will know want something from
you. Your boss, your partner, the guy down the street. All they see
when they look at you is what they can get from you. You do the
same damn thing to them.
Don't give em any of that denial crap, if you spend five seconds being
honest with yourself you'll see I'm right.
It's the great rat race mate, or if your gonna get martial about it,
rattenkrieg. You’re a tool and that's how anybody will ever see you,
even me.

hmmm looking around I can't even find that passage on the BIP wiki. Maybe it got left out?

seems to be a viewpoint from a very particular reality grid. couldn't it be slightly rotated (gridwise) to say the same thing from a different perspective?

[Forteetu]

wow ... lots happening ... trying to read thru this and get some real work done at the same time

just another thought on the idea of fictionalising the BIP so that it comes from an anonymous author in 1st person ... the parts that seem preachy, coming from another inmate or from a prison guard, etc ...  would still use the words "You", but would have a slight removea from the actual reader as being directed at the writer, not the reader. There is a subtle line that can walked where the changing from the "you" to the "me" as both meaning the writer can allow the reader to identify with the author and at the same time allow a level of seperation in the "preachy" bits.

anyway, trying to do some real work that I get paid for ...

[LMNO]

On Pages 14-15.

I see what you mean that there is a tacit implication that it would be better not to filter our sensations at all, that it would be best to experience all our sensations all at once.  Which is in no way what I,Äôm trying to say.

So, I,Äôm gonna add a few more paragraphs after the line, ,ÄúWe construct our actions and reactions to this 1% of available information, and reject everything else in the Universe.,Äù

It will contain:

~ The infeasibility of action should we experience everything.
~ The way our mental state and education (conditioning) affects perceptions
~ How this makes each person,Äôs perceptions different, but not necessarily wrong.