Difficult Choices!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yes you want to help them, but did you ever think if they WANT your help?
All your writing sounds to me as if you trample in the lifes of other person and try to teach them "wrong" and "right" (or at least what you think is wrong or right).
Bigotry or most mental "diseases" do not actually harm the person (in most cases) so why help them, if they dont ASK for it?
If they are happy with their BiP leave them alone.

You seem to be happy with yours.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Fine, whatever. You're right, I'm shit, whatever.


This thread can die for all I care.

Stop letting Discord get under your skin.  He's just mad because we make fun of him for being a furry.

[nurbldoff]

I one knew a girl who was openly racist and when confronted about it would say plainly that she was once raped by a couple of "darkies" and that caused her racism. I've no idea if this story was really true (there was a lot of evidence that she wasn't a very reliable person, to say the least) and even if it was, somehow it seems strange that she was able to coldly point out this cause to her bigotry. I find it more believable that she had her racist views before this event (assuming it happened) and she was just using the trauma as an excuse, since she knew it would incite sympathy for her. And of course it somehow works as an argument for her views, if you're sufficiently narrow-minded.

Just trying to complicate the question, is all. You don't have to thank me.

[Discord]

Yes you want to help them, but did you ever think if they WANT your help?
All your writing sounds to me as if you trample in the lifes of other person and try to teach them "wrong" and "right" (or at least what you think is wrong or right).
Bigotry or most mental "diseases" do not actually harm the person (in most cases) so why help them, if they dont ASK for it?
If they are happy with their BiP leave them alone.

You seem to be happy with yours.

kind of yes.

as long as i can see the bars im happy. Simply because if i can see the bars i know where to work on.

And of course, i need a girl with cat ears and a tail, maybe some claws too.

[B_M_W]

Yes you want to help them, but did you ever think if they WANT your help?
All your writing sounds to me as if you trample in the lifes of other person and try to teach them "wrong" and "right" (or at least what you think is wrong or right).
Bigotry or most mental "diseases" do not actually harm the person (in most cases) so why help them, if they dont ASK for it?
If they are happy with their BiP leave them alone.

You seem to be happy with yours.

kind of yes.

as long as i can see the bars im happy. Simply because if i can see the bars i know where to work on.

And of course, i need a girl with cat ears and a tail, maybe some claws too.

Yeah, because obviously nothing matters, even being an asshole to lots of other people, as long as YOU are happy.

Right...

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yeah, because obviously nothing matters, even being an asshole to lots of other people, as long as YOU are happy.

Right...

Maybe.

It seems to me that we don't know if anything exists beyond our life right now. We may have a soul that continues on and gets promoted, punished, recycled or whatever. We may not have a soul and when we die, that might be it; Dead, dirt and disintegration.  It seems a safe bet to assume that we get to go around once, and if (by happy coincidence) there's more... well goody.

So then, when we live this one life that (by all appearances) we have, must we live it altruistically? Must we live it as a martyr? Must we sacrifice our drive for happiness so that we can help others? Or is that just one option? So much of our thought process in this day and age seems to be around "doing for others". Yet, I haven't seen any proof that this lifestyle does much for the person living it (except make them feel good, if they're programmed to feel good when being altruistic).

I have lived the altruistic/martyr lifestyle and in retrospect, it reminds me of the fable of the man, his boy and their donkey. In trying to do for others, in trying to make others happy, the man ended up making no one happy and losing his donkey in the process. So, currently, I'm not living an altruistic lifestyle. I still do altruistic things, when I find it appropriate/useful or what I want to do... but well... I'm not sure that anything other than individual happiness, including being a jerk to others (or letting others be jerks to each other) really matters.

Maybe the world would be better off without bigots. I think that's probably a good assumption. However, that does not necessarily make it a requirement for me (or anyone else on this or any other forum) to care or to try to stop people from acting stupid.

As far as I can tell, what matters is living life now, in a way that seems most useful to the person living that life. If that means altruism, then fine, if it means personal focus, then O.K., if it means bouncing between different positions, based on which side of the bed you woke up on, or which number you got when you rolled a dice... then that seems no more or less valid than the other options to me.

[B_M_W]

Yeah, because obviously nothing matters, even being an asshole to lots of other people, as long as YOU are happy.

Right...

Maybe.

It seems to me that we don't know if anything exists beyond our life right now. We may have a soul that continues on and gets promoted, punished, recycled or whatever. We may not have a soul and when we die, that might be it; Dead, dirt and disintegration.  It seems a safe bet to assume that we get to go around once, and if (by happy coincidence) there's more... well goody.

So then, when we live this one life that (by all appearances) we have, must we live it altruistically? Must we live it as a martyr? Must we sacrifice our drive for happiness so that we can help others? Or is that just one option? So much of our thought process in this day and age seems to be around "doing for others". Yet, I haven't seen any proof that this lifestyle does much for the person living it (except make them feel good, if they're programmed to feel good when being altruistic).

I have lived the altruistic/martyr lifestyle and in retrospect, it reminds me of the fable of the man, his boy and their donkey. In trying to do for others, in trying to make others happy, the man ended up making no one happy and losing his donkey in the process. So, currently, I'm not living an altruistic lifestyle. I still do altruistic things, when I find it appropriate/useful or what I want to do... but well... I'm not sure that anything other than individual happiness, including being a jerk to others (or letting others be jerks to each other) really matters.

Maybe the world would be better off without bigots. I think that's probably a good assumption. However, that does not necessarily make it a requirement for me (or anyone else on this or any other forum) to care or to try to stop people from acting stupid.

As far as I can tell, what matters is living life now, in a way that seems most useful to the person living that life. If that means altruism, then fine, if it means personal focus, then O.K., if it means bouncing between different positions, based on which side of the bed you woke up on, or which number you got when you rolled a dice... then that seems no more or less valid than the other options to me.

Bigots are people who are assholes to other people just because the other people are different than their stupid ideas of what is acceptable.

Are you telling me that you think thats okay? If you are, then your just another fucking solipsistic asshole.

I am so fucking tired of the "nothing is true, everything is permittable" schtick.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yeah, because obviously nothing matters, even being an asshole to lots of other people, as long as YOU are happy.

Right...

Maybe.

It seems to me that we don't know if anything exists beyond our life right now. We may have a soul that continues on and gets promoted, punished, recycled or whatever. We may not have a soul and when we die, that might be it; Dead, dirt and disintegration.  It seems a safe bet to assume that we get to go around once, and if (by happy coincidence) there's more... well goody.

So then, when we live this one life that (by all appearances) we have, must we live it altruistically? Must we live it as a martyr? Must we sacrifice our drive for happiness so that we can help others? Or is that just one option? So much of our thought process in this day and age seems to be around "doing for others". Yet, I haven't seen any proof that this lifestyle does much for the person living it (except make them feel good, if they're programmed to feel good when being altruistic).

I have lived the altruistic/martyr lifestyle and in retrospect, it reminds me of the fable of the man, his boy and their donkey. In trying to do for others, in trying to make others happy, the man ended up making no one happy and losing his donkey in the process. So, currently, I'm not living an altruistic lifestyle. I still do altruistic things, when I find it appropriate/useful or what I want to do... but well... I'm not sure that anything other than individual happiness, including being a jerk to others (or letting others be jerks to each other) really matters.

Maybe the world would be better off without bigots. I think that's probably a good assumption. However, that does not necessarily make it a requirement for me (or anyone else on this or any other forum) to care or to try to stop people from acting stupid.

As far as I can tell, what matters is living life now, in a way that seems most useful to the person living that life. If that means altruism, then fine, if it means personal focus, then O.K., if it means bouncing between different positions, based on which side of the bed you woke up on, or which number you got when you rolled a dice... then that seems no more or less valid than the other options to me.

Bigots are people who are assholes to other people just because the other people are different than their stupid ideas of what is acceptable.

Are you telling me that you think thats okay? If you are, then your just another fucking solipsistic asshole.

I am so fucking tired of the "nothing is true, everything is permittable" schtick.

Read what I wrote, not what you read

<i>Bigots are people who are assholes to other people just because the other people are different than their stupid ideas of what is acceptable.</i>

Agreed.

<i>Are you telling me that you think thats okay?</i>

No, I'm not saying that I think its ok. Nowhere did I say "It's OK to be a bigot." Discord didn't say "Yay bigotry is fun". He said that it wasn't necessarily his job to fix it. He seems to be happy to focus on his own BiP, not someone elses. Based on your response, you seem to think that there's some requirement to life beyond being happy: Yeah, because obviously nothing matters, even being an asshole to lots of other people, as long as YOU are happy. Right...

Maybe there is, but I have yet to see evidence that such a position is true in any sense.

My point is not that I think its OK to be a bigot... my point is that I don't care if some asshole is a bigot. He isn't my problem, he isn't my responsibility, he isn't my job, nor is he my burden. If Discord prefers to spend his life focused on himself and getting out of his BiP, good for him, if he's happy on top of that then Double Bully, he's doing better than most of the monkeys on this goddess forsaken rock. If you choose to spend your life combating bigots and their BiP, then good for you, if that makes you happy on top of that then Double Bully, you're doing better than most of the monkeys on this goddess forsaken rock.

And if I prefer to enjoy myself, my life (whatever may be left of it), my friends and poking at the minds I choose to poke at then good for me and if it makes me happy, well I'll assume I'm doing ok. You see the sins of the other monkeys aren't my sins. The flaws of the other monkeys aren't my flaws... if I choose to involve myself, then I shall and if not... well who are you to say that personal happiness is somehow less of a life?

[B_M_W]

Okay, you wanna play that game? Just wait until the bigots come after YOU.


And by The Good Reverend's herecies, I don't see it being too long before that happens.



Me, I'm gonna try to be a little less reactionary. Perhaps you think my ideas are total altruism, that may be so. But I do see a trend in the past, that when people don't speak up, soon enough they are pursued themselves, and then they don't have a voice to speak with.






I'm also 'bout tired of this BIP metaphore.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Okay, you wanna play that game? Just wait until the bigots come after YOU.

Not to be cliche' but the bigots were after me for most of my life. I've been chased away from farmyards with corn cutters, pushed down stairs and I have scars on my face from a dobermen that apparently didn't appreciate the Word of the Lord... particularly not after his owner cut him loose on me and another teenager. I've been spit on, called names, beat up and once had a gun fired at me.

Me, I'm gonna try to be a little less reactionary. Perhaps you think my ideas are total altruism, that may be so. But I do see a trend in the past, that when people don't speak up, soon enough they are pursued themselves, and then they don't have a voice to speak with.

Everyone has a voice to speak with, you should use your voice if that's what you want to do. I'm not trying to judge your altruism or reaction or views. I'm only questioning the wisdom of judging the lack of altruism, reaction or views of other people.

I'm also 'bout tired of this BIP metaphore.

Every metaphor is a prison... in some sense 

[Discord]

<i>Bigots are people who are assholes to other people just because the other people are different than their stupid ideas of what is acceptable.</i>

Agreed.

<i>Are you telling me that you think thats okay?</i>

No, I'm not saying that I think its ok. Nowhere did I say "It's OK to be a bigot." Discord didn't say "Yay bigotry is fun". He said that it wasn't necessarily his job to fix it. He seems to be happy to focus on his own BiP, not someone elses. Based on your response, you seem to think that there's some requirement to life beyond being happy: Yeah, because obviously nothing matters, even being an asshole to lots of other people, as long as YOU are happy. Right...

Maybe there is, but I have yet to see evidence that such a position is true in any sense.

My point is not that I think its OK to be a bigot... my point is that I don't care if some asshole is a bigot. He isn't my problem, he isn't my responsibility, he isn't my job, nor is he my burden. If Discord prefers to spend his life focused on himself and getting out of his BiP, good for him, if he's happy on top of that then Double Bully, he's doing better than most of the monkeys on this goddess forsaken rock. If you choose to spend your life combating bigots and their BiP, then good for you, if that makes you happy on top of that then Double Bully, you're doing better than most of the monkeys on this goddess forsaken rock.

And if I prefer to enjoy myself, my life (whatever may be left of it), my friends and poking at the minds I choose to poke at then good for me and if it makes me happy, well I'll assume I'm doing ok. You see the sins of the other monkeys aren't my sins. The flaws of the other monkeys aren't my flaws... if I choose to involve myself, then I shall and if not... well who are you to say that personal happiness is somehow less of a life?

I can agree on most of that, and i simply thought of your approach kind of wrong. Even if we agree that bigotry is bad, you can't just trample in someones life trying to make him happy or healthy in the way the words exist in your BiP.
If I understood you correctly, you want to HELP, meaning, to bring more positivity in someones life. If thats true, see above.
If you simply want to change people its fine, but you should keepp in mind that you might destroy their lifes if you take away their bigotry.

Best example are Goths. No Goth would appreciate it if you dance into their life trying to make them "happy". Although "happy" is for most people very positiv.

[nurbldoff]

Whether it's Right or Wrong or Whatever to "help" a bigot out of bigotry is an ethical question and therefore a bit irrelevant to the initial question, I'd say...

Anyway, it seems pretty one-sided to say that "helping" a bigot is all about bringing happiness into their life. A bigot might be a very happy person, if he's in an environment where that works. E.g. he lives in a stable society where his brand of bigotry is the norm. But if a bigoted person is likely to hurt others, there's at least one reason to try to cure him. Being an asshole unto others is not a human right.

Also, bigotry is, by definition, a distortion of your view of your surroundings, which probably means that you're less likely to make good choices based on your perception. That should be a handicap when it comes to looking for "happiness". In general, that is.

[Discord]

Also, bigotry is, by definition, a distortion of your view of your surroundings

What?
Who says that?
Who tells you that YOUR view of the surroundings is right and not theirs? Will an elephant be red just beacuse the majority of people claim he's red?

I call Bullshit.

[Cain]

Also, bigotry is, by definition, a distortion of your view of your surroundings

What?
Who says that?
Who tells you that YOUR view of the surroundings is right and not theirs? Will an elephant be red just beacuse the majority of people claim he's red?

I call Bullshit.

Your analogy doesn't hold up.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+bigot&meta=

I call bullshit.  Learn how to structure an argument based on agreed terms and what someone says, instead of what you think they should have said.

[Discord]

And who do you think made up that definition?

Someone who thought exactly this:

Who tells you that YOUR view of the surroundings is right and not theirs? Will an elephant be red just beacuse the majority of people claim he's red?

O noes because some piece of paper says bigots are distorted I have to agree with it?
What about the think for yourself thing than?

I call bullshit.  Learn how to structure an argument based on agreed terms and what someone says, instead of what you think they should have said.

That definitly is right, im taking this to far.