THE CANCER KILLING PDCOM - Blow-by-Blow Coverage of Democratic Primary Race

[Roo]

The specifics are there. Read the man's website or listen to his speeches, instead of assuming the Media isn't feeding you bullshit about him being "all talk." If you want to you can also follow his entire career from being a community organizer to this current campaign, and you might find out that the guy not only has an agenda but has the ability to get shit done.

I am 100% in line with the idea that the system gives us no real choices and no real change. But the SYSTEM hasn't chosen this candidate -- for the first time in probably 75 years, this is a guy who is where he is in spite of the system, because actual people have put him there. Even if I disagree with some of his positions, I will vote for him because I'll support anything that calls the supremacy of the status quo into doubt.

Instead of assuming the the Media isn't feeding me bullshit about him being "all talk"?

Ok. for one, I assume that the Media is always feeding me bullshit. Secondly, if the specifics are so transparent, why not just state them here? In another tab, I have his website open right now. I'm looking at the part under Issues, and after sifting through the poli-speak...I see a lot of ideas that work to maintain the status quo. Tax relief...and a billion dollars here, 2 billion there...another federal program for this, putting our tax dollars to work for that. I still don't see plans for doing much of anything differently than it is now. I would really appreciate you pointing those specifics out to me, because I'm really starting to think that you can't.

[LMNO]

Roo, you've got to pick a concern here... Either you think that he has no plans, or you think his plans maintain the status quo.

You're arguing from both sides, here.

[Jenne]

RWHN: 

As in:  Two Steps Forward, One Step Back

?

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Nobody is the answer to all of society's problems. And that is recognized by sensible people all the time. Look at the difference between Obama die-hards and Ron Paul die-hards: the Paulbots were screaming crazies who kept going on and on about how RP is gonna fix the whole world and electing him would be the best thing EVAR and "we'll show those bastards" and blah blah blah blah. Obamabots, on the other hand, are more in touch with reality, if only slightly. Their level of discourse tends to be higher and more on-topic and to-the-point than any other bunch of political groupies in America right now, for one thing. For another thing, as much as everybody is decrying the movement for glorifying some anonymous guy from Illinois as "America's Savior," nobody in the BHO camp has actually said anything like that. It's always WE, not HIM, they recognize that policy can't change unless intentions change, and intentions can't change without fucking listening to people. So they do. Of course, it's all off the deep end as far as the media and the pundits are concerned, but there are more than a few people who at least seem to understand that the media and the pundits are full of shit, this time.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Roo, you've got to pick a concern here... Either you think that he has no plans, or you think his plans maintain the status quo.

You're arguing from both sides, here.

I guess I'm in a similar state as Roo... I see Obama say things, but I don't see any detail about how such things might get accomplished. He talks about a billion for X or Y, but where does that billion come from? He talks about leaving Iraq, but how is he gonna do it and make sure the whole thing doesn't collapse like the house of cards it currently is? I guess, I'm still not convinced that he's doing anything other than the normal politician's stump promises...

I'd vote for the guy if I saw something concrete, but I have his 70some page PDF, his website and I've watched the debates and I don't see details, just broad statements. Am I missing something?

[AFK]

bouncin off Vex:
Yep, and I know in at least one of the debates Obama emphatically and specifically stated that "Change" is going to be a group effort.  He is actually the only one I see that has actually put any portion of the onus on the people.  McCain and Hillary want to save the country for the people.  Obama seems to, in some fashion, want to share that burden with the people.  And to me, that is something different.  Sure, some of it is stump speech, but at least it's getting the thought in people's minds.

[AFK]

Roo, you've got to pick a concern here... Either you think that he has no plans, or you think his plans maintain the status quo.

You're arguing from both sides, here.

I guess I'm in a similar state as Roo... I see Obama say things, but I don't see any detail about how such things might get accomplished. He talks about a billion for X or Y, but where does that billion come from? He talks about leaving Iraq, but how is he gonna do it and make sure the whole thing doesn't collapse like the house of cards it currently is? I guess, I'm still not convinced that he's doing anything other than the normal politician's stump promises...

I'd vote for the guy if I saw something concrete, but I have his 70some page PDF, his website and I've watched the debates and I don't see details, just broad statements. Am I missing something?

Okay, about Iraq.  Do you really think it is wise for Obama to draw up a plan for Iraq, IN APRIL, that he will be implementing IN JANUARY OF 09????

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Roo, you've got to pick a concern here... Either you think that he has no plans, or you think his plans maintain the status quo.

You're arguing from both sides, here.

I guess I'm in a similar state as Roo... I see Obama say things, but I don't see any detail about how such things might get accomplished. He talks about a billion for X or Y, but where does that billion come from? He talks about leaving Iraq, but how is he gonna do it and make sure the whole thing doesn't collapse like the house of cards it currently is? I guess, I'm still not convinced that he's doing anything other than the normal politician's stump promises...

I'd vote for the guy if I saw something concrete, but I have his 70some page PDF, his website and I've watched the debates and I don't see details, just broad statements. Am I missing something?

Okay, about Iraq.  Do you really think it is wise for Obama to draw up a plan for Iraq, IN APRIL, that he will be implementing IN JANUARY OF 09????

A concrete plan, of course not...  a useful set of ideas would be nice though.

[AFK]

Based upon what? 

[tyrannosaurus vex]

i think the biggest "change" obama represents is the will to completely ignore party lines and party loyalty in order to actually work with anybody who will help to get things done. at first, "compromise" doesn't sound very revolutionary. but look at where this country has been for almost 50 fucking years. basically, it's been absolute gridlock, with the big issues becoming nothing but a call to arms and vote-bagging platform supports.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

i think the biggest "change" obama represents is the will to completely ignore party lines and party loyalty in order to actually work with anybody who will help to get things done. at first, "compromise" doesn't sound very revolutionary. but look at where this country has been for almost 50 fucking years. basically, it's been absolute gridlock, with the big issues becoming nothing but a call to arms and vote-bagging platform supports.

Well, McCain seems to have been doing the same thing for quite some time... in the actual senate, passing actual laws.

So why should I trust Obama's potential 'crossing party lines' over McCain's actual crossing of party lines?

*not trying to be an ass, actually asking questions*

[Jenne]

I don't know if Obama HIMSELF is a step away from "politics as usual," but electing him sure as hell will be.

The ticker at the bottom of BBC America's broadcast last night said something like "70% of America ready to elect a black man."

That's fucking significant.  Even if it is a media ploy, it's a good ploy in my book.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

i think the biggest "change" obama represents is the will to completely ignore party lines and party loyalty in order to actually work with anybody who will help to get things done. at first, "compromise" doesn't sound very revolutionary. but look at where this country has been for almost 50 fucking years. basically, it's been absolute gridlock, with the big issues becoming nothing but a call to arms and vote-bagging platform supports.

Well, McCain seems to have been doing the same thing for quite some time... in the actual senate, passing actual laws.

So why should I trust Obama's potential 'crossing party lines' over McCain's actual crossing of party lines?

*not trying to be an ass, actually asking questions*

It isn't just potential, you know. Read about the bills he's voted for and sponsored. Also look up his history in the state government of Illinois. There's actual history there. So not only is the "no substance" claim bullshit, so is the "no experience" claim.

[AFK]

i think the biggest "change" obama represents is the will to completely ignore party lines and party loyalty in order to actually work with anybody who will help to get things done. at first, "compromise" doesn't sound very revolutionary. but look at where this country has been for almost 50 fucking years. basically, it's been absolute gridlock, with the big issues becoming nothing but a call to arms and vote-bagging platform supports.

Well, McCain seems to have been doing the same thing for quite some time... in the actual senate, passing actual laws.

So why should I trust Obama's potential 'crossing party lines' over McCain's actual crossing of party lines?

*not trying to be an ass, actually asking questions*

Do you really think McCain is still the Mythical "Maverick"?  He's been towing the Bush party line ever since he entered the campaign.  Just recently, a new GI bill has been introduced to Congress that will give more benefits to members of the Military when they end their service.  Democrats and Republicans have supported it.  But Bush doesn't like it because he fears it will encourage members of the military to quit early.  Guess who else has reservations about this.  Mr. Military himself John McCain.  He's a farce.  

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

i think the biggest "change" obama represents is the will to completely ignore party lines and party loyalty in order to actually work with anybody who will help to get things done. at first, "compromise" doesn't sound very revolutionary. but look at where this country has been for almost 50 fucking years. basically, it's been absolute gridlock, with the big issues becoming nothing but a call to arms and vote-bagging platform supports.

Well, McCain seems to have been doing the same thing for quite some time... in the actual senate, passing actual laws.

So why should I trust Obama's potential 'crossing party lines' over McCain's actual crossing of party lines?

*not trying to be an ass, actually asking questions*

Do you really think McCain is still the Mythical "Maverick"?  He's been towing the Bush party line ever since he entered the campaign.  Just recently, a new GI bill has been introduced to Congress that will give more benefits to members of the Military when they end their service.  Democrats and Republicans have supported it.  But Bush doesn't like it because he fears it will encourage members of the military to quit early.  Guess who else has reservations about this.  Mr. Military himself John McCain.  He's a farce. 

I think that in some areas McCain drastically departs from the party line. In some areas he is in line with the Republicans and in some areas he is in line with the NeoCons. But the same could be said of Obama... in some areas he seems close to the party line, in other areas... not so much.

In practice, however, McCain has stood against his party, the president etc. In practice he has worked across party lines (McCain -Feingold, Gang of 14 etc).

In practice, Obama is a junior Senator that is saying interesting stuff.

I doubt either of them will do much more than make lots of noise and accomplish little. Except McCain might invade Iran.... ick.