Does the BIP actually change who we *are*?

[LMNO]

Red Brick Bank.

Heh.  I like it.

Or, "The Castle," maybe?

[AFK]

probably better, less aliteration. 

[LMNO]

The problem with these metaphors is that it's too easy to think of them as external, too easy to say, "well, i lowered the drawbridge/went out the fire escape/blew up the vault/et al", and think of themselves as somehow being able to get outside it all.

"Your were born with a defect in your sight.  You can wear glasses, but you will never truly see what is there."

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

So, I spent the night in meditation on this topic and I wandered around in my brain looking to see what I thought. I imagined a prison, first the outer walls, then the guard towers the Wardens offices, the yard, the mess hall and I imagined people and cells and solitary confinement doors with just a slit for food. I imagined guys in orange jump suits, young punks and biker thugs and there was an old guy in an orange jump suit that was mopping the hall between the cells, the word trustee came to mind and then the old guy said "It's bigger than you think it is, schmuck."

Maybe the prison is a good metaphor.

Our first interactions in the world, place the main prison walls, then the guard towers, and each experience, each new Truth we learn, each Law and Belief we pick up paints us further and further down that hall... until we eventually are behind the door with the slit, a tiny hole for information to enter through. Information that is expected and the base requirement for survival. Some people break out of that (or maybe never get painted that far in) and maybe get to live in a less restrictive cell.

But, eventually, if we figure out how, maybe we can become trustees and go out on excursions beyond the Prison walls... never forever, but lots more freedom than you hand in solitary...

And in the end, maybe we'll even get to be the warden, in control of every aspect of our prison, but still living in our BiP.....

That was some good pot.

[LMNO]

Heavy.  Birth as processing the inmate.

Out of the womb, and into the prison.




This could easily get depressing fast.

[Mangrove]

Heavy.  Birth as processing the inmate.

Out of the womb, and into the prison.




This could easily get depressing fast.

Better e-mail Laz...

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Heavy.  Birth as processing the inmate.

Out of the womb, and into the prison.




This could easily get depressing fast.

So back to the original question "Does the BiP change who we are?"

I don't know, now I'm beginning to think that the BiP may be Who We Are, or maybe we're all of the prisoners, the guards, the cook and the Warden?

[LMNO]

I suppose it would depend on whether you believe there is a kernel of immutable "soul" somewhere inside you that continues, unchanged, regardless of all the accreted rules and perceptions that form the crust of your personality.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I suppose it would depend on whether you believe there is a kernel of immutable "soul" somewhere inside you that continues, unchanged, regardless of all the accreted rules and perceptions that form the crust of your personality.

Well, I guess I'm torn... It seems to me that there is a difference between changing ones perceptions, or focus and changing the basic 'circuits'. They seem related, surely, exposure to new information can evoke change, I think. However, it seems a lot easier to me, to accept some new data, or change the way you consider the value of data X, without changing the base person.

That is, if we tend towards Hostile Strength, Hostile Weakness, Friendly Strength or Friendly Weakness... changing data focus (moving bars around) doesn't necessarily effect this 'base position'. If Leary and Wilson were correct in their model, making changes at that level requires a lot of work and effort, metaprogramming etc.

So maybe, if we want to try to make it stretch to fit we could say:

The BiP is the Prison we built from Birth, but we live inside that Prison (in some sense as ALL of the people in that prison, from the person in lockdown to the guard to the Warden).

Changing our perceptions changes the bars in our cell, or perhaps the window location in our cell. It permits us to see data that we may have ignored before, but we are still the person in the cell.

However, meta programming, re-imprinting through a shock to the neurological system etc... may change who we are in the prison. A horrific rape, may stick the individual in their own BiP Solitary Confinement Cell. Lots of work and practice may free them so that they can leave their cell as Trustees. Mastering their 'meta-programming circuit' could mean that they make it all the way up to Warden.

So small changes may affect what we see... Large changes may affact who we are...

Thoughts?

[LMNO]

At first, I was deciding that you seem to have taken the BIP, and simply duct-taped it to the 8-circuit model, because you had discovered 8C first, and hold it in higher regard; while my point was that BIP includes 8C, it doesn't go on top of 8C.

But then, you said something interesting, that got me thinking.

The BiP is the Prison we built from Birth, but we live inside that Prison

I can begin to see your point, that the metaphor of the BIP fits the idea of filters that a self is looking through, rather than the BIP as "self".

In that instance, there does seem to be a crude division:  The BIP indicates how experiences are re/percieved, and the "self" determines how to react to those experiences.


However, since it is possible to change the 8C, but much harder, I kind of drift back to the "8C as the foundations and bedrock of the cell."

I'll think about this over the weekend.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

At first, I was deciding that you seem to have taken the BIP, and simply duct-taped it to the 8-circuit model, because you had discovered 8C first, and hold it in higher regard; while my point was that BIP includes 8C, it doesn't go on top of 8C.

I find that the 8 circuit model provides a strong map that we can use when discussing consciousness. When we start looking at a new map for consciousness, I usually try to see which parts of the map may be marking the same territory. While Leary eventually flipped out and, IMO, did more harm than good to the pro-LSD movement... his work as a psychologist seems extremely well done. Leary seems to have explored consciousness by working with hundreds of people and making observations. I might say, he explored the territory quite extensively and thus I find his map seems to be very useful.

Most of us seem unlikely to be able to explore the territory quite as deeply as he did. So I find it very useful to use him map as a touchstone. If the new map diverges from his map, I try to figure out why.

I think that's one of the reasons I've hit the BiP so hard... I couldn't square the two interpretations of the territory. Of course, on the down side, I was also being a schmuck. I should have simply started using the map, then later compared it to the other maps, once I better understood it. I think this discussion has helped a lot in that regard.

But then, you said something interesting, that got me thinking.

The BiP is the Prison we built from Birth, but we live inside that Prison

I can begin to see your point, that the metaphor of the BIP fits the idea of filters that a self is looking through, rather than the BIP as "self".

In that instance, there does seem to be a crude division:  The BIP indicates how experiences are re/percieved, and the "self" determines how to react to those experiences.

Just so. If we change bars (ie modify filters) there has to be someone peeking out through the bars as the observer. Otherwise changing the bars would just be cosmetic, wouldn't it?

However, since it is possible to change the 8C, but much harder, I kind of drift back to the "8C as the foundations and bedrock of the cell."

I'll think about this over the weekend.

Ah good, then I'm not entirely crazy... just mostly

In my meditation, I found that I created the outer walls first. The outer walls of our BiP would define how 'big' our world could be. It seems that people who imprinted weakly on their first four circuits would shrink those walls, while a person that imprinted strongly on the first four circuits, might have a much more expansive prison.

So as walls, floors or foundations, I think that may work. Maybe Walls a bit more, since the foundation doesn't really stop you from accessing information, while walls do?

[Triple Zero]

just wanted to add that, on the one hand i'm totally convinced that there exists no such thing as an immutable core self, it's also pretty much intrinsically impossible to imagine any situation that goes beyond any not-very-mutable self.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

just wanted to add that, on the one hand i'm totally convinced that there exists no such thing as an immutable core self, it's also pretty much intrinsically impossible to imagine any situation that goes beyond any not-very-mutable self.

I agree... to use a computer metaphor.

There's no such thing as an immutable Linux Kernel. However, a new version of Firefox, visiting a new website, installing GTK or KDE and OpenOffice doesn't change the kernel... it modifies how we interact with data, but it doesn't affect the core processing. However, we can recompile the kernel and make major changes to core processing. The former seems to me to fit with new ideas, new applications, new data... the latter seems to fit with the idea of changing oneself.

Does that make any sense?

[LMNO]

But can you really draw a line between levels like that?

Let's say, for example, a kid who imprinted a "flight/submissive" response on C1/C2 decided to take a martial arts class.  That in itself isn't going to change anything.

After a few months, he loses a little weight, gains som muscle, and people start treating him differently.  Let's use Rat's version of the metaphor, and say that he's broken a few bars, re-arranged the furniture.  His improved health gives him a more cheerful attitude, he sees things more positively.

Cut to several years later, he's still taking martial arts classes.  He's now a confident, outgoing, dominant person.  He's personable, has charisma, and is very hard to intimidate.

Somewhere in there, we went from changing the BIP to altering C1&2.  I'd suggest that since it's very hard to discern when that happens, then it's all of a similar process. 


I propose that BIP and C8 are metpahors for each other.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

But can you really draw a line between levels like that?

Let's say, for example, a kid who imprinted a "flight/submissive" response on C1/C2 decided to take a martial arts class.  That in itself isn't going to change anything.

After a few months, he loses a little weight, gains som muscle, and people start treating him differently.  Let's use Rat's version of the metaphor, and say that he's broken a few bars, re-arranged the furniture.  His improved health gives him a more cheerful attitude, he sees things more positively.

Cut to several years later, he's still taking martial arts classes.  He's now a confident, outgoing, dominant person.  He's personable, has charisma, and is very hard to intimidate.

Somewhere in there, we went from changing the BIP to altering C1&2.  I'd suggest that since it's very hard to discern when that happens, then it's all of a similar process. 


I propose that BIP and C8 are metpahors for each other.

But... that's precisely why I think there are some subtle differences.

The Eight Circuit Model is speaking not of perception, but of imprint. Whereas Reality Tunnels talk about perception more than imprint, changing ones reality tunnel doesn't necessarily change ones circuits.

I would posit that the BiP integrates both metaphors, and could do so very well... except something isn't quite clean enough to make the distinction.