Rev Roger, Year of the Rat #7

[LMNO]

TGRR, that was very awesome.


Applesauce:

The bill specifically mentions the use of violence in its definition of homegrown terrorist.  If you actually hurt somebody are you still "just" a thought criminal?

Where is the section that is so vague that it can be interpreted to mean any dissident?

--

Edit: the bill in question is only to form a committee.  The only power the committee gets is to investigate, and its job is to make recommendations on a national policy.  How can that oppress anyone?

1.


(2) VIOLENT RADICALIZATION- The term `violent radicalization' means the process of adopting or promoting an extremist belief system for the purpose of facilitating ideologically based violence to advance political, religious, or social change.

`(3) HOMEGROWN TERRORISM- The term `homegrown terrorism' means the use, planned use, or threatened use, of force or violence by a group or individual born, raised, or based and operating primarily within the United States or any possession of the United States to intimidate or coerce the United States government, the civilian population of the United States, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

`(4) IDEOLOGICALLY BASED VIOLENCE- The term `ideologically based violence' means the use, planned use, or threatened use of force or violence by a group or individual to promote the group or individual's political, religious, or social beliefs.

Using the phrase "Lets slap around some government officials and put some Discordians in charge for real change" is now a terrorist act.

But of course, no one would ever use a law written to combat terrorism for any other use, ever.




Just ask Eliot Spitzer.

[Cramulus]

This entire thread is a delicious STEAK. TGRR, I LOVE the rant, it makes me spit fire,
and I also very much appreciate the dissection of the legal text itself.

You're right - I would be much less dissident if the government wasn't actively installing cameras and taking notes on my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

The other day, my Dad asked me about this Stephen Colbert stunt I was working on, and I told him about it, and he warned me, "You gotta be careful. Activities like that are gonna get you put on a list." He said that with such curdling gravity.

Listen, if I can't do PERFECTLY LEGAL things for fear of getting grouped and groped as "one of them" then I don't know what to do anymore. But I'm not gonna let THAT stop me.

Using the phrase "Lets slap around some government officials and put some Discordians in charge for real change" is now a terrorist act.

But of course, no one would ever use a law written to combat terrorism for any other use, ever.

Just ask Eliot Spitzer.

read as: Laughing / Screaming

[LMNO]

We need a "horror/mirth" emote.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Just because the Pigs live in the farm house... doesn't mean they'll act like the farmers right? I mean sure they're wearing clothes now... and they're walking on their hind feet... but they're still animals like us, right? Still intent on keeping us free from some crazy controlling overlords... right? RIGHT?!?!?!

[Cain]

I'll lay out the problem of this bill.

From a professional pnoint of view, we NEED money to tell us why people become terrorist and, more importantly, why they disengage or quit.  The academic community has been starved of funding, while the no-hoper dropouts and Classical Students who infest the intelligence services have been given sacks of cash and no oversight.  We're the ones who make the breakthroughs, in terms of theory and understanding, us and the military theorists, and that is where the money should be headed.

However, this 'Bill' does two very wrong things.

1.  It conflates extremism with terrorism

Are terrorists extreme?  Sure, but depends on your use of the word extreme.  There are peaceful extremists....Buddhists come to mind, or the Muslim brotherhood, who have hardline beliefs that they will not give up, but do not pose a threat.  Also, look at the people who are considered "not extreme".  Both the official doctrines of the Republican and Democratic parties (Neoconservativism and Neoliberalism) give them the authority to use extreme force in foreign countries - to open markets or in defence of universal human rights.  The invasion of Iraq has left at the very least 100,000 people dead, as a direct consequence.  How is that not extreme?  Why isn't Wolfowitz or Cohen being waterboarded right now?  Because they rely on state terror?  Its a bullshit dichotomy.  State terror is still terrorism, and in a just world, we'd try and hang fuckers like them.

2.  I know the so-called terrorist experts in the USA who will be in charge of such a committee.  It'll be stacked with RAND corporation 'experts' and NeoCon puppets, who've heavily infiltrated the discourse on terrorism, as well as national security and military policy over the last 20 years.  You wanna see what someone like Brian Jenkins, or Daniel Pipes, comes up with?     It wont be pretty, not at all.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The definitions are only for the purpose of the act.

Of course, of course.   

And the PATRIOT Act has never been used on mere music pirates.

Honest.

And it doesn't just say promoting, it says using, planning to use, or threatening to use violence to promote.  So if you promote ELF by bombing (or planning to bomb or threatening to bomb) somebody, you're a terrorist.

(2) VIOLENT RADICALIZATION- The term `violent radicalization' means the process of adopting or promoting an extremist belief system  for the purpose of facilitating ideologically based violence to advance political, religious, or social change.

Great.  Now define "facilitating".

Seriously, dude.  Legislative creep is a wonderful thing.  We can trust the "government".

No, really.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

`(m) Public Meetings-

            `(1) IN GENERAL- The Commission shall hold public hearings and meetings to the extent appropriate.

            `(2) PROTECTION OF INFORMATION- Any public hearings of the Commission shall be conducted in a manner consistent with the protection of information provided to or developed for or by the Commission as required by any applicable statute, regulation, or Executive order including subsection (i)(2)(B).

--

            `(6) EMPHASIS ON SECURITY CLEARANCES- The Commission shall make it a priority to hire as employees and retain as contractors and detailees individuals otherwise authorized by this section who have active security clearances.

I'll take this to mean that they'll keep their meetings public except when the might want to discuss information that is important to national security.  And here's a hint: The goal of the commission would be to write a report about national security.  I expect many things from my government.  Transparency is not one of them anymore.

Well, then let's just hop back in the sty with the other piggies, shall we?

[Cain]

Also, remember the US government has used every narrative since the "War on Communism" to imprison and spy on American citizens with impunity.  War on drugs?  Check.  War on internet crime?  Check.  War on Terrorism?  Check. 

[P3nT4gR4m]

Maybe after vietnam they decided to play it safe and never declare war on honest to fuck actual human beings just in case they get their asses kicked again.

At least abstract concepts and ideologies don't fight back.

[Cain]

If they did, someone fucked up the gameplan with respects to Iraq.

Although its probably true.  Waging war internally tends to be more profitable and lower on visible casualties.

[P3nT4gR4m]

It's also much, much more terrifying. You can see an enemy invasion fleet coming. If there's nukes fired you get 4 mins to hide underground with tinned food. Drugs will infect your children and you won't notice til it's too late to save them. Terrorists will blow up your plane and the only warning you'll get is your legs flying past your head.

Government has only ever worked by fear - the real terrorism. They get better at it every year. About a decade from now I predict that presidents will be chosen purely on the basis of how many cc's of shit they can spontaneously extract from their constituents.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

We need a "horror/mirth" emote.

LOL I made a meme!

Roger, well done. True enough to be terrifying.

[Adjective Noun]

On the subject of ignoring laws, you might be interested in a couple of landlords in the UK who are happily ignoring the smoking ban by dividing the pubs they own into smoking and non-smoking areas, just like they used to.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_6260000/newsid_6263100?redirect=6263162.stm&bbwm=1&bbram=1&nbwm=1&nbram=1&news=1
Havnt heard much about them recently, I know at least one of them has been fined though.

[Cain]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

http://rand.org/pubs/testimonies/2007/RAND_CT285.pdf

God I love it when I'm right.  Brian Jenkins gets a whiff of some pork and the chance to stick it to the Muzzies/support the NeoCons and he goes a running!