Concerning Illuminatus Material

[hooplala]

This is in response to Nigel's last reply in the "Cain Contra Robert Anton Wilson" thread . . .

I can only speak from personal experience, and cannot speak for others, but personally any material from Illuminatus I've ever "used" were almost always topics I was already interested in BEFORE reading anything Discordian: I had been a JFK assassination buff since my early teens, a friend in high school was a huge John Dillinger nut, I loved Bugs Bunny since I was child... blah blah blah and yadda yadda yadda...

I prefer Bugs Bunny (an Illuminatus Discordian idea) to Mickey Mouse (a PD Discordian idea) simply because Bugs seems more discordian to me... Mickey was sort of a putz, except for very early cartoons like Steamboat Willy... now, do I use Bugs Bunny very often?  No.  I think I used him once in a blog (From John Dillinger to Bugs Bunny In 5 Easy Steps)... and instead usually use Alfred E Neuman, or my own discordian mascots like Fudgio Montobono or whoever . . .

I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to pick and choose what I want to use from something else without being called a bobbie.  If I was parroting EVERY single idea RAW or Illuminatus ever spouted, fine.  But to avoid everything someone wrote so to NOT be a bobbie is sort of bobbie behaviour, is it not?

Need I quote the holy words of Vexati0n?  "Doing everything exactly opposite from "The Mainstream" is the same thing as doing everything exactly like "The Mainstream."   You're still using What Everyone Else is Doing as your primary point of reference. It's the same kind of stupid that is practiced by Satanists who worship the Christian Devil."

Oh, wait . . . I used someone else's words . . . I must be a bobbie.

[AFK]

I was more of a Woody Woodpecker fan.  What does that mean?

But more to the point, I completely agree with everything you said.  The way I see it, the reading material, wherever it comes from, is a starting point.  What is more important, I think, is where we go from that starting point.  I believe anything can be a valid reference point, depending on what you are discussing. 

[hooplala]

I think Woody is discordian.  Especially the earlier episodes, before it became so suburban.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't disagree with you, I was just commenting on how surprisingly ubiquitous Illuminatus! memes are now that I'm aware of them, and I could see why that would get on someone's nerves.

On the other hand, a lot of the memes collected in the trilogy are just that... collected. Not invented. I think that was deliberate, though what with RAW being dead there's no way to ask him... I think he and Shea set out to concentrate every Discordian meme they were aware of at the time into Illuminatus!. They did a good job of it.

I am also amazed at how some memes spontaneously emerge from isolation, like fascination with Richard Nixon, cones, pork, etc. At the intersection of these memes, you find Discordians.

[LMNO]

Please keep in mind that the first edition of the PD was published in 1965*, and I3! was written from 69-71. 

There was hardly anything to "collect"; he was creating stuff out of whole cloth.








*A whole five copies, incidentally.  The next edition was published in 69, so it could be argued that I3! was written concurrently with PD.

[hooplala]

It's true.  I'm starting to suspect RAW wrote much more of the PD than I had originally suspected. In fact, I'm beginning to suspect he wrote more of the actual content than Thornley did.

[hooplala]

Also, one last thought on the OP:  you don't go to a Star Trek convention and expect people to talk about Lord of the Rings... you don't go to the library and expect to find meat, cereal, fruits and vegetables...  you don't go to the post office to see a movie...

If you plan to consider yourself a Discordian it would probably be more realistic to realize that some common memes will be present.

Is Eris off limits for Discordians now?

I look forward to future memos about what I should and shouldn't do, think, or talk about, as a Discordian.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Please keep in mind that the first edition of the PD was published in 1965*, and I3! was written from 69-71. 

There was hardly anything to "collect"; he was creating stuff out of whole cloth.








*A whole five copies, incidentally.  The next edition was published in 69, so it could be argued that I3! was written concurrently with PD.

He invented the Kennedy assassination? Whoa, man, that's heavy.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

No, but seriously. There are obviously a shitload of existing social themes which he exploited/collected in the book. As for writing the PD, I don't think so. It's fairly apparent from reading various forewords, essays, and books that he was friends with Thornley, Hill, and Benares, among others in the scene, in much the same way that so many Beat writers were friends. Of course there's a lot of conceptual crossover and sharing of ideas.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

From my conversations with Bob and other old school weirdos, here's what I've put together:

In the mid 1960's Kerry and Greg worked together, they, along with other employees wrote a lot of what became the PD and other books that were never published. RAW, from what I gather, was not directly involved, but did receive a lot of the mailings that Greg and Kerry were doing. Some of those hinted at the Discordian Society as a great secret society at war with the Illuminati. When he worked at Playboy, he and Bob Shea got lots of conspiracy mail from weirdos. These two bizarre sources are where most of the Illuminatus! memes seem to have come from. (with guest pop appearances from Lovecraft, Joyce etc).

Wilson and Shea were friends with Leary... RAW particularly had been fascinated with modifying brain programs since the late 50's and spent a lot of time in the 60's experiences the weird shit that later became Cosmic Trigger (aliens from Sirius etc). Between the ideas Leary had on brain patterns/programs and his personal facination with Joyce, Pound etc, the Bob's decided to write the book using a new pattern of writing... that is they created a new communication model with different rules. The idea being that the could teach brains to think in new patterns... for some people that seems to be what happens. For other people, it doesn't.

At some point, I think during the late 80's, Thornley actually decided that Bob was actually a secret government plant, tasked with making people question conspiracies etc.

I think Thornley had some rather profound mental issues by the end of the 80's.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

That is super neat history... I'm glad you know that shit!

[hooplala]

I am of the opinion that RAW brought the Illuminati to the table in the entire situation.  He and Shea encountered the concept on a regular basis on the Playboy letter section... I believe it says this in the Mord the Foul intro to the Robert Anton Wilson Reader.  And, I can name at least 4 parts of the PD that I think there is some evidence to lean toward RAW writing them.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am of the opinion that the Illuminati R us

[P3nT4gR4m]

with regards the OP - My take is that these things are described as "trappings" and that an apt description. The trappings of discordia, fnord, pineal, 23, 5 etc.. have trapped the ideals that it originally stood for. Whole generations have worn the menu without actually getting what the fuck it was about. So the movement has become stale and trapped in the parody it has become.

The majory of fnord/pineal spouters seem to fall into this latter category. Anyone who uses these memes runs the risk of being labelled 'twat' along with them, simply because it's generally a pretty reliable acid test of character. Sure there are exepctions to this rule - it wouldn't be a rule if there weren't.

I'm sure there's a perfectly nice jewish chap out there somewhere who likes wearing black shirts and jackboots but if I see him coming I'll prolly think 'nazi' just cos the general rule of classification applies. As monkeys we judge on appearances. Old wives say we shouldn't but that's irrelevent - it's what we do regardless.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

BAH U R Lame and 2 late, U kno whut???