Author Topic: Time to switch sides  (Read 13022 times)

Verbal Mike

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Re: Time to switch sides
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2008, 11:46:08 pm »
:mittens:
A pleasure to read, as always.
I'm also intrigued by this idea, and it seems to make sense, but I wonder how this translates to "next action" pragmatism: how do we go about starting to forge this unholy alliance?
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BootyBay

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Re: Time to switch sides
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2008, 12:05:58 am »
What would prevent the people you produce the capital for from milking you for all you're worth?  And how would creating more capital destroy the ruling class? (I'm assuming more capital = more power).  Why would we want to overthrow a corrupt government by using anti-idealistic methods? (isn't this the opposite of what a revolution is supposed to be about?)  Protections on the market are there for a reason, and I predict seriously f'd up shit happening if they were removed (and I doubt the fall of a government spiraling out of control would be one of them).
There are two kinds of people in this world.. Winners and losers.. I think we know which kind you are.

Golden Applesauce

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Re: Time to switch sides
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2008, 01:57:02 am »
That reminds me of another privilege I enjoy:

People who sell me food face serious consequences if it has mad cow or other nasty things in it.
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Cainad (dec.)

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Re: Time to switch sides
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2008, 02:38:28 am »
What would prevent the people you produce the capital for from milking you for all you're worth?  And how would creating more capital destroy the ruling class? (I'm assuming more capital = more power).  Why would we want to overthrow a corrupt government by using anti-idealistic methods? (isn't this the opposite of what a revolution is supposed to be about?)  Protections on the market are there for a reason, and I predict seriously f'd up shit happening if they were removed (and I doubt the fall of a government spiraling out of control would be one of them).

This is a "revolution" with the blessing of Eris. What things are "supposed to be about" no longer applies.

Make strife. Take advantage. Reap the lulz.

Cain

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Re: Time to switch sides
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2008, 07:32:19 am »
I don't know about anyone else, but the idea at least sounds intriguing to me.

Agreed.

Penn Gillette comes to mind when you talk about this (both a Subgenius and Libertarian). A large portion of the right-wingers you talk about actually have values on par, just a different vision (charitable organization in lieu of government ones).

I'd also like to see what Mike Gravel is up to nowadays. He jumped ship from the Democrats for the Libertarians. I'm interested in seeing how they receive him.

True.  I was thinking the more insane variant however.  The Beltway NeoCons and Libertarians have a tacit alliance, and neither is that friendly to the idea of Theocracy, despite the lip-service they pay to it.  Their actions help break down the system faster, they tend to be looked upon favourably by Wall Street than, say, the antiwar.com style libertarians, who I would generally consider good guys.

Infiltrating the rich bad guys and pushing their system to its logical limits, and watching the crash, is more amusing and worthwhile, I feel.

Cain

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Re: Time to switch sides
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2008, 07:33:36 am »
This is an interesting idea, Cain.

Get the house of cards to topple that mcuh faster, if I understand you right.

Basically, yes.  The base of the house is too secure to affect it from this level, so smashing down from the top is more appealing.

Cainad (dec.)

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Re: Time to switch sides
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2008, 07:35:10 am »
We will, of course, have to be prepared to deal with leftist opposition.

Cain

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Re: Time to switch sides
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2008, 07:37:56 am »
So, supposing chaos happens... then what?

All in all, the status quo isn't that bad for me.  I have a steady supply of food, shelter, and health care.  I'm getting a cool education and the internet pipes connect me to anywhere in the world where someone can speak English.

Yeah, but its boring.

Besides, a collapse wont be total.  It'll just change how the world works a lot.  For example, the Peace of Westphalia established freedom of religion within Europe, and autonomy of state boundaries.  But in the confusing meantime, lots of people wont know what is happening.  I intend to, and to make use of that brief period to establish myself.

After that...who knows?  It'll depend where everyone else stands in relation to me.

Cain

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Re: Time to switch sides
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2008, 07:54:29 am »
What would prevent the people you produce the capital for from milking you for all you're worth?  And how would creating more capital destroy the ruling class? (I'm assuming more capital = more power).  Why would we want to overthrow a corrupt government by using anti-idealistic methods? (isn't this the opposite of what a revolution is supposed to be about?)  Protections on the market are there for a reason, and I predict seriously f'd up shit happening if they were removed (and I doubt the fall of a government spiraling out of control would be one of them).

They already do.  The difference is becoming far more important to their goals and thus an integral part of their system, then removing ourselves and our services at an opportune moment.  Its the advanced version of throwing sand in the gears.

Because the ruling class, as you call them, are reliant on the state for protection.  Legal protection, bailing them out when their businesses fail (socialism for the rich) and notions of sovereignty and nationalism that buttress support and isolate opposition.  They also rely to a large degree on support based on ethnic and religious ideals linked to the state.  If capital breaks down the links between those bonds between religion, nationality and state (as it seems to), then the leadership lose their support.

Because idealists are rarely trustworthy when it comes to action.  Many have problems distinguishing between the world as it is, and as it could be.  Also, look at all the idealistic revolutions of the past (Communism, Nazism to a degree, the US invasion of Iraq etc) and when they get into power, the result is usually a river of blood, and a new tyranny.  Besides, this isn't about revolution per se, its about duping right-wing revolutionaries and using them to further our own ends.  I want to see what happens when the dust settles, because its more interesting than the current nonsense, which is predictable and narrow in its outcomes.  Its like pressing a button to see what happens, writ large.  I want to press the button that says "destroy the international system" and see how it turns out, with modern technology and loyalties.

Protections are indeed there for a reason.  Look at Argentina, or Russia under Yeltsin, or Bolivia.  And they didn't go half as far as the true free market fanatics want.  Now imagine that sort of havoc, visited on the centre of international capital, the one place that if it goes down hard, the rest of the world will shortly follow.

Besides, once we're in place, we can play around with tactics more.  For example, play off the religious nutters against the neolibertarians/neocons.  I tend to think the neolibs will win, because they have international finance on their side, mostly.  But if say, for some reason, the Christian Right gained the upper hand...well, even religious fanatics need people who can think outside the box and do things that if they did it, would make them look very bad indeed.  It's all a matter of reading the current situation and playing it for all its worth.

wade

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Re: Time to switch sides
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2008, 05:22:21 pm »
I want to be on the side with the resources...
REALLY real discordians

i wouldnt hurt a fly
 :thumb: :kojak:

Jenne

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Re: Time to switch sides
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2008, 05:26:03 pm »
I dunno.  Cozying up to Xtians would creep me out too much--have too many of them still in my family (my parents for starters).  I would have to sit this one out and watch and learn from the sidelines.

BootyBay

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Re: Time to switch sides
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2008, 02:30:46 am »
What would prevent the people you produce the capital for from milking you for all you're worth?  And how would creating more capital destroy the ruling class? (I'm assuming more capital = more power).  Why would we want to overthrow a corrupt government by using anti-idealistic methods? (isn't this the opposite of what a revolution is supposed to be about?)  Protections on the market are there for a reason, and I predict seriously f'd up shit happening if they were removed (and I doubt the fall of a government spiraling out of control would be one of them).

They already do.  The difference is becoming far more important to their goals and thus an integral part of their system, then removing ourselves and our services at an opportune moment.  Its the advanced version of throwing sand in the gears.

Because the ruling class, as you call them, are reliant on the state for protection.  Legal protection, bailing them out when their businesses fail (socialism for the rich) and notions of sovereignty and nationalism that buttress support and isolate opposition.  They also rely to a large degree on support based on ethnic and religious ideals linked to the state.  If capital breaks down the links between those bonds between religion, nationality and state (as it seems to), then the leadership lose their support.

Because idealists are rarely trustworthy when it comes to action.  Many have problems distinguishing between the world as it is, and as it could be.  Also, look at all the idealistic revolutions of the past (Communism, Nazism to a degree, the US invasion of Iraq etc) and when they get into power, the result is usually a river of blood, and a new tyranny.  Besides, this isn't about revolution per se, its about duping right-wing revolutionaries and using them to further our own ends.  I want to see what happens when the dust settles, because its more interesting than the current nonsense, which is predictable and narrow in its outcomes.  Its like pressing a button to see what happens, writ large.  I want to press the button that says "destroy the international system" and see how it turns out, with modern technology and loyalties.

Protections are indeed there for a reason.  Look at Argentina, or Russia under Yeltsin, or Bolivia.  And they didn't go half as far as the true free market fanatics want.  Now imagine that sort of havoc, visited on the centre of international capital, the one place that if it goes down hard, the rest of the world will shortly follow.

Besides, once we're in place, we can play around with tactics more.  For example, play off the religious nutters against the neolibertarians/neocons.  I tend to think the neolibs will win, because they have international finance on their side, mostly.  But if say, for some reason, the Christian Right gained the upper hand...well, even religious fanatics need people who can think outside the box and do things that if they did it, would make them look very bad indeed.  It's all a matter of reading the current situation and playing it for all its worth.

Ohhhhhhh.... now I get it!  Loll I was being a moron.  Forgive my lack of understanding.  You're proposing doing something like investing $500 mil in a company, waiting til it makes a dangerous venture and then selling out every share of that stock.  I like that idea! >:)
There are two kinds of people in this world.. Winners and losers.. I think we know which kind you are.

Golden Applesauce

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Re: Time to switch sides
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2008, 04:03:38 am »
Two things:

1.) How?  OK, the gov't is a stack of cards.  Where the fuck do I blow on it?
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Adios

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Re: Time to switch sides
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2008, 12:53:31 pm »
I don't know about anyone else, but the idea at least sounds intriguing to me.

Agreed.

Penn Gillette comes to mind when you talk about this (both a Subgenius and Libertarian). A large portion of the right-wingers you talk about actually have values on par, just a different vision (charitable organization in lieu of government ones).

I'd also like to see what Mike Gravel is up to nowadays. He jumped ship from the Democrats for the Libertarians. I'm interested in seeing how they receive him.

True.  I was thinking the more insane variant however.  The Beltway NeoCons and Libertarians have a tacit alliance, and neither is that friendly to the idea of Theocracy, despite the lip-service they pay to it.  Their actions help break down the system faster, they tend to be looked upon favourably by Wall Street than, say, the antiwar.com style libertarians, who I would generally consider good guys.

Infiltrating the rich bad guys and pushing their system to its logical limits, and watching the crash, is more amusing and worthwhile, I feel.

Feed the Beast™ it's own bile until it explodes............

Sepia

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Re: Time to switch sides
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2008, 01:14:23 pm »
I really like your thoughts.
Everyone will always be too late