Author Topic: Labels imply products, right...?  (Read 4128 times)

Elder Iptuous

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2012, 06:38:17 pm »
i don't think its a regionally heterogeneous thing, oysters.
i've seen true chivalry down here, and misogyny aplenty up north.  we're all apes.
if you're seeing a lot of it among the people around you, then it's time to replace the people around you?

wait... "kindness or blackmail or whatever"?  seems an odd turn of phrase thar...  :lol:

navkat

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2012, 06:43:47 pm »
Ah, it's even worse than that. At least in the south. If a man ever does anything for a woman just out of kindness or blackmail or whatever, then it's automatically a she has him by the balls type thing.

People can preach about equality in one breath and say that women who wear pants go to hell in the next (that was a real conversation I had. For real real).

Although, where I live, many women are just as bad about holding back gender equality as a lot of men are. You'd think they were trying to become the subject of a snoop dogg song.

Actually, I find the opposite to be true in upper-middle class Mobile, AL society.

Here, the woman is the Matriarch. She makes the "Honey-do" lists, tells the man where he can put down the toolbelt when he gets home, what to wear for church, what school the children will attend, what Mardis Gras societies they will belong to and when to show up for dinner.

He, in turn, is allowed to disappear for the afternoon to go fishing, drink a six of Miller Lite in front of the TV, pick out the color of his truck and act like a college Fraternity kid...as long as he holds down a job, is good to the children and toes the line. A good ol' "country boy," drinking beer out of an Auburn Tigers Tervis tumbler.

It's weird. Most people think the opposite but the trailer park, domineering male/oppressed female model of the southern marriage is the minority here.

Oysters Rockefeller

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2012, 06:52:40 pm »
i don't think its a regionally heterogeneous thing, oysters.
i've seen true chivalry down here, and misogyny aplenty up north.  we're all apes.
if you're seeing a lot of it among the people around you, then it's time to replace the people around you?

wait... "kindness or blackmail or whatever"?  seems an odd turn of phrase thar...  :lol:

You, good sir, make a brilliant point. I'm blinded by my hatred of the south.

Also, don't act like you've never been coerced into a romantic, candle lit knife fight by a woman with incriminating documents.
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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2012, 06:56:46 pm »
Actually, I find the opposite to be true in upper-middle class Mobile, AL society.

Here, the woman is the Matriarch. She makes the "Honey-do" lists, tells the man where he can put down the toolbelt when he gets home, what to wear for church, what school the children will attend, what Mardis Gras societies they will belong to and when to show up for dinner.

He, in turn, is allowed to disappear for the afternoon to go fishing, drink a six of Miller Lite in front of the TV, pick out the color of his truck and act like a college Fraternity kid...as long as he holds down a job, is good to the children and toes the line. A good ol' "country boy," drinking beer out of an Auburn Tigers Tervis tumbler.

It's weird. Most people think the opposite but the trailer park, domineering male/oppressed female model of the southern marriage is the minority here.

That's incredibly interesting.
Maybe it has something to do with those horrible roads downtown?
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Doktor Howl

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2012, 06:59:35 pm »
Actually, I find the opposite to be true in upper-middle class Mobile, AL society.

Here, the woman is the Matriarch. She makes the "Honey-do" lists, tells the man where he can put down the toolbelt when he gets home, what to wear for church, what school the children will attend, what Mardis Gras societies they will belong to and when to show up for dinner.

He, in turn, is allowed to disappear for the afternoon to go fishing, drink a six of Miller Lite in front of the TV, pick out the color of his truck and act like a college Fraternity kid...as long as he holds down a job, is good to the children and toes the line. A good ol' "country boy," drinking beer out of an Auburn Tigers Tervis tumbler.

It's weird. Most people think the opposite but the trailer park, domineering male/oppressed female model of the southern marriage is the minority here.

That's incredibly interesting.
Maybe it has something to do with those horrible roads downtown?

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2012, 07:03:47 pm »
ya.  that was my point.
i guess 'manipulate' has deceptive subtext in a given context, though.
"that manipulative bitch!" generally doesn't mean a young woman of exceptional ability to handle or control the environment around her.
but when given the lofty context of language in general, i tend to think of the technical definition you present.

Which also brings up the gender bias that alters how the word is perceived when applied to a female vs. a male.

People call women manipulative bitches, but most commonly when it's used to describe a man it's used in a context of admiration, ie. media manipulation or manipulation of popular perception.

When used to describe women it is typically used with the connotation that a person who lacks overt power or control over her environment is using subversive means to get what she wants, whereas when used to describe men it usually has connotations of a person with power using his charisma or skills as a spin doctor to alter public perception in a way that is favorable to him.
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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2012, 07:07:37 pm »
"that manipulative bitch!" generally doesn't mean a young woman of exceptional ability to handle or control the environment around her.

In my experience, 90% of the time, that's exactly what the person saying it means.

Or this.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


navkat

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2012, 07:30:07 pm »
Actually, I find the opposite to be true in upper-middle class Mobile, AL society.

Here, the woman is the Matriarch. She makes the "Honey-do" lists, tells the man where he can put down the toolbelt when he gets home, what to wear for church, what school the children will attend, what Mardis Gras societies they will belong to and when to show up for dinner.

He, in turn, is allowed to disappear for the afternoon to go fishing, drink a six of Miller Lite in front of the TV, pick out the color of his truck and act like a college Fraternity kid...as long as he holds down a job, is good to the children and toes the line. A good ol' "country boy," drinking beer out of an Auburn Tigers Tervis tumbler.

It's weird. Most people think the opposite but the trailer park, domineering male/oppressed female model of the southern marriage is the minority here.

That's incredibly interesting.
Maybe it has something to do with those horrible roads downtown?

Non sequitors are the new Black.

I don't even know what the intended point was here. The roads are horrible everywhere...just like the water and the government.

Elder Iptuous

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2012, 07:38:34 pm »
ya.  that was my point.
i guess 'manipulate' has deceptive subtext in a given context, though.
"that manipulative bitch!" generally doesn't mean a young woman of exceptional ability to handle or control the environment around her.
but when given the lofty context of language in general, i tend to think of the technical definition you present.

Which also brings up the gender bias that alters how the word is perceived when applied to a female vs. a male.

People call women manipulative bitches, but most commonly when it's used to describe a man it's used in a context of admiration, ie. media manipulation or manipulation of popular perception.

When used to describe women it is typically used with the connotation that a person who lacks overt power or control over her environment is using subversive means to get what she wants, whereas when used to describe men it usually has connotations of a person with power using his charisma or skills as a spin doctor to alter public perception in a way that is favorable to him.

although i don't know that i've commonly heard the term 'manipulative' applied to men with admiration, i would say that it is definitely used with a context of ... um...  fearful respect? maybe?  whereas with women it is mostly scorn.
good observation.

Elder Iptuous

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2012, 08:34:43 pm »
"that manipulative bitch!" generally doesn't mean a young woman of exceptional ability to handle or control the environment around her.

In my experience, 90% of the time, that's exactly what the person saying it means.

hehe....
i just noticed that you referred to a woman as 'manipulative' today...   :p

Doktor Howl

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2012, 08:36:13 pm »
"that manipulative bitch!" generally doesn't mean a young woman of exceptional ability to handle or control the environment around her.

In my experience, 90% of the time, that's exactly what the person saying it means.

hehe....
i just noticed that you referred to a woman as 'manipulative' today...   :p

An individual woman, or all women in general?

I mean, are you trying to say women are incapable of being manipulative, or incapable of being individuals
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Elder Iptuous

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2012, 08:40:52 pm »
"that manipulative bitch!" generally doesn't mean a young woman of exceptional ability to handle or control the environment around her.

In my experience, 90% of the time, that's exactly what the person saying it means.

hehe....
i just noticed that you referred to a woman as 'manipulative' today...   :p

An individual woman, or all women in general?

I mean, are you trying to say women are incapable of being manipulative, or incapable of being individuals?

oh, no no... in a specific post about a specific woman, who, although i haven't really followed the drama, has, from your perspective, as i understand it, acted deceptively...
It doesn't really mean anything, i just thought it was funny thinking of the two posts juxtaposed on the same day...
 :)

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2012, 08:41:43 pm »
"that manipulative bitch!" generally doesn't mean a young woman of exceptional ability to handle or control the environment around her.

In my experience, 90% of the time, that's exactly what the person saying it means.

hehe....
i just noticed that you referred to a woman as 'manipulative' today...   :p

An individual woman, or all women in general?

I mean, are you trying to say women are incapable of being manipulative, or incapable of being individuals?

oh, no no... in a specific post about a specific woman, who, although i haven't really followed the drama, has, from your perspective, as i understand it, acted deceptively...
It doesn't really mean anything, i just thought it was funny thinking of the two posts juxtaposed on the same day...
 :)

That's okay, I was just running it back at you.  :lol:
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Elder Iptuous

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2012, 08:44:46 pm »
shit, man. dont do that!
you make me nervous.
 :lol:

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2012, 09:06:46 pm »


Quote
manipulate/məˈnipyəˌlāt/
Verb:   

    Handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner: "he manipulated the dials".
    Alter, edit, or move (text or data) on a computer.

To be fair:
Quote
transitive verb
1
: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2
a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
3
: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

Yes, there is another connotation of the word for a reason...because sometimes people cross the line into being deliberately devious and obfuscatory about it.

and THIS wraps up your point in itself. THIS is why not censoring the language and letting people make their point in the way that suits them, even if the connotations of the language they choose seems biased to you is so fucking important. It's one of the most beloved points about Orwell's "newspeak" concept: without a mutually understood word to validate and symbolize a concept, you may as well delete the concept from people's minds.

"I don't want the government telling me NOT to take drugs because I have the right to have fun!" says little.
"Cognitive Liberty" says volumes. It makes your opponents have to take a moment to phrase their argument in a way that addresses the concept of having the right to control the thoughts in your head through the use of (or refusal to use) chemicals.

Excellent point. Similarly, instead of "legalize it" I try to use the phrase "repeal prohibition of it". In that instance it's a matter of precedence. "Legalization" implies that "criminalization" is the status quo and the problems with criminalization and/or the benefits of legalization need to be proven. "Repealing the prohibition," rightly (to my mind) illustrates that a substance being prohibited is the change itself and needs to be justified to be continued. The gateway drug, reduced motivation, etc, arguments may be sufficient as reasons against making a change to the state of things, but are they sufficient to justify a law that changes the way things otherwise naturally exist?
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