Author Topic: Victim mentality  (Read 45201 times)

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2008, 09:17:03 pm »
10 or 20? Nah, its just that no one in the First World has pulled that shit for the past 20 years... go ask the Tutsi what they think about genocide well, those lucky enough not to be one of the 800,000 that died in 1994.

Happens all the time.  Rwanda.  Nigeria. Sierra Leone.  Liberia.  Darfur.... Iraq.

First World, Third World...  people are people last I checked.
Humans just do this shit to one another all the time.
Not to sound too 23PINEALOLZOMG or anything, but please refer to the Sermon on Ethics and Love.

Also, the "10 or 20" or whatever was an oblique reference to the Armenian genocide in Turkey starting in 1915.

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2008, 09:26:53 pm »
10 or 20? Nah, its just that no one in the First World has pulled that shit for the past 20 years... go ask the Tutsi what they think about genocide well, those lucky enough not to be one of the 800,000 that died in 1994.

Happens all the time.  Rwanda.  Nigeria. Sierra Leone.  Liberia.  Darfur.... Iraq.

First World, Third World...  people are people last I checked.
Humans just do this shit to one another all the time.
Not to sound too 23PINEALOLZOMG or anything, but please refer to the Sermon on Ethics and Love.

Also, the "10 or 20" or whatever was an oblique reference to the Armenian genocide in Turkey starting in 1915.

TROOF! Rwanda was just the only one that I remembered any stats or dates on.

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Verbal Mike

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2008, 11:09:19 pm »
Okay, I reread your original post now Muffled and I may have overreacted before... The main thing that pissed me off is the retardation of trying to connect between what the Israelites did and what their descendants, hundreds of generations later, suffered.
I wrote two longer texts for this post but they're both irrelevant and kinda whiny. Genocide is horrible, people who witness it, or whose relatives were victims, have some touchy spots. Murder traumatizes a family. Genocide traumatizes a nation. Whether I like it or not, there are cultural entities that can more or less accurately be called "nations". Whatever the theoretical connection between the two, the genocide committed by one nation and that enacted upon another thousands of years later, have nothing to do with each other.
That's all.
I'm getting out of this argument because I'm not sure anymore what I'm arguing with you about.
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2008, 11:35:14 pm »
Okay, I reread your original post now Muffled and I may have overreacted before... The main thing that pissed me off is the retardation of trying to connect between what the Israelites did and what their descendants, hundreds of generations later, suffered.
I wrote two longer texts for this post but they're both irrelevant and kinda whiny. Genocide is horrible, people who witness it, or whose relatives were victims, have some touchy spots. Murder traumatizes a family. Genocide traumatizes a nation. Whether I like it or not, there are cultural entities that can more or less accurately be called "nations". Whatever the theoretical connection between the two, the genocide committed by one nation and that enacted upon another thousands of years later, have nothing to do with each other.
That's all.
I'm getting out of this argument because I'm not sure anymore what I'm arguing with you about.

Is that retardation, Verb, or the truth?

Is it really so difficult to believe that the Israelites had a hand in their own suffering? I'm not talking about blame. Rather, it's the concept of "co-creation", where no one is really to blame because both parties contributed to the horrible thing that happened. I mean, if you think about it, like you said, murder traumatizes a family. Genocide traumatizes a nation. If the trauma of a murder can last at least 2 or 3 generations (which it does), then wouldn't genocide traumatize a nation for a proportional amount of time? Like 2 or 3 thousand years?


That's the funny thing about this victim mentality question...people don't ever want to blame the victim, because "oh no! no one ever deserves such horrible things". And they don't, but not holding the victim accountable for whatever small part they played (and/or the way they choose to live after the event) is what perpetuates this victim mentality. Some people are more than willing to take advantage of others' pity.

 

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #64 on: May 08, 2008, 12:28:29 am »
What perpetuates the victim mentality is the conception that by claiming victim status, one is entitled and/or special.  People need to feel good about themselves, and claiming the identity of the suffering hero is one such way to do that.  That, and some hairless monkeys for whatever reason have this notion of a cosmic balance; when it becomes obvious that no such balance exists they take it upon themselves to fix it, trying to make up for horrible things that happen to decent people.  (or that they should)

As for victims and blame, by definition the word 'victim' denotes someone who isn't blameworthy.  I don't see what benefits 'holding the victim accountable' would bring ... I suppose it would be useful to see what (if anything) could have been done by the victim so that future potential victims could avoid it.
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #65 on: May 08, 2008, 01:41:34 am »
What perpetuates the victim mentality is the conception that by claiming victim status, one is entitled and/or special.  People need to feel good about themselves, and claiming the identity of the suffering hero is one such way to do that.  That, and some hairless monkeys for whatever reason have this notion of a cosmic balance; when it becomes obvious that no such balance exists they take it upon themselves to fix it, trying to make up for horrible things that happen to decent people.  (or that they should)

As for victims and blame, by definition the word 'victim' denotes someone who isn't blameworthy.  I don't see what benefits 'holding the victim accountable' would bring ... I suppose it would be useful to see what (if anything) could have been done by the victim so that future potential victims could avoid it.

"Holding the victim accountable" is referring to the idea that we are each responsible for our own lives...something that I think has often been lost or waylaid in modern society. I agree that it would be useful to see what works in recovering from trauma, and what doesn't, so that future victims can be helped. But I'm also referring to how we treat each other, and what we allow the people around us to get away with. Notice, for instance, how noobs are treated on this board (and even long-term members). If someone is getting too whiny, too emo, too whatever, other people speak up. In this way, we hold each other accountable for our behavior. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.


 

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #66 on: May 08, 2008, 06:26:55 am »
We are each responsible for our own lives...but the Hebrew Nation is to blame for what the Third Reich did.
Whatever. I don't have time for this bullshit.
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2008, 06:28:06 am »

Is it really so difficult to believe that the Israelites had a hand in their own suffering?

You know, I don't think you're the kind of person I wish to know.
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2008, 07:56:44 am »

Is that retardation, Verb, or the truth?

Is it really so difficult to believe that the Israelites had a hand in their own suffering?

Is it so difficult to believe that the majority of a nation would do something as horrible as buying into the crazy rhetoric of a political party because it promised to relieve them of the responsibility for their lives? You know that this is what Germans got (or hoped to get) in exchange, don't you? They got a leadership that promised prosperity and that time would stop and allow them to stay in the safe past.


What you are saying is roughly this: Oh it happened, and it was so horrible. No, humans would not do that without provocation. Lets dig into the past of the victims and see if they are really as blameless as the pretend to be.

People do not become victims of crimes because they where somehow "blameless" and being murdered is not some kind of retroactive canonization. I agree that the black/white view is as popular as it is tiresome but you are, in your way, buying into it too.

And finally, you are confusing layers of reality. Tempting as it is to simplify things, a nation is not just some kind of bigger individual. Just because people here find excuses to rip each other apart every now and then it does not follow that everybody who was the victim of an atrocity deserved it in some way.



« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 08:43:00 am by Dido »

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2008, 03:44:56 pm »

Is it really so difficult to believe that the Israelites had a hand in their own suffering?

You know, I don't think you're the kind of person I wish to know.

I think you've said that before, and I think I'm the kind of person that you don't want to know, but can't get away from. But you don't have to read or respond to my posts, if you don't want to. I won't be offended.


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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2008, 04:03:44 pm »
Is it so difficult to believe that the majority of a nation would do something as horrible as buying into the crazy rhetoric of a political party because it promised to relieve them of the responsibility for their lives?

Not when I see it happening all over again. :sad:

What you are saying is roughly this: Oh it happened, and it was so horrible. No, humans would not do that without provocation. Lets dig into the past of the victims and see if they are really as blameless as the pretend to be.

People do not become victims of crimes because they where somehow "blameless" and being murdered is not some kind of retroactive canonization. I agree that the black/white view is as popular as it is tiresome but you are, in your way, buying into it too.

And finally, you are confusing layers of reality. Tempting as it is to simplify things, a nation is not just some kind of bigger individual. Just because people here find excuses to rip each other apart every now and then it does not follow that everybody who was the victim of an atrocity deserved it in some way.

To clarify: I think the Holocaust was the worst thing that any humans have ever done to other humans in recorded history. The Jews (and gays, gypsies, etc.) did nothing to deserve what happened to them. They were victimized, brutally, and we (the entire world) is still recovering from it.

Perhaps it is simplifying things too much to treat a nation as an individual, but that nation was made up of millions of individuals. Those individuals were part of families, and those families were part of communities, and those communities were part larger groups, and so on up to the level of the nation. It's not that much of a stretch to say that if something is traumatic to one person, and that if affects those around them for several generations, then something that is traumatic to millions of people will effect most of humanity for quite some time afterwards.

What I'm saying is that it happened, it was so horrible that most of us can't even comprehend what happened or why, and that there was a history of bloodshed for thousands of years before the Holocaust, that did have something to do with why it happened. I'm saying that if we wish to understand what happened, the first place to look is history, and see what happened before this. And if we want to prevent such a horrid thing from ever happening again, we'd be wise to learn our history well.

But, learning our history means seeing the bad parts. It means accepting the really nasty shit that humans have done to one another over the eons. It means that our people (whoever they may be) were not the heroes we've always thought they were. It also means that even when we've been victimized by others, we still have the choice to remain victims or rise above it. Still further, it means that we have the choice to treat someone who has been victimized as either a victim or a survivor. Victims always need help. They are assumed to be incapable of taking care of themselves, or having responsibility for their own lives. They are often treated like children, needing to be coddled and cared for, not allowed to make their own choices, or expected to do things on their own. Survivors are usually perceived as strong and capable. They are expected to continue their lives, making their own choices and only getting help if they ask for it. It's the difference between giving a man a fish and teaching him to fish.

Moreover, I believe that it is this victim mentality that has led to "the majority of a nation [doing] something as horrible as buying into the crazy rhetoric of a political party because it promised to relieve them of the responsibility for their lives". If I'm a victim, and he's a victim, and you're a victim too...then it's okay for someone else to make all the decisions to keep us safe and secure, and we don't have to worry about little things like freedom and prosperity.

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2008, 05:24:30 pm »
"Holding the victim accountable" is referring to the idea that we are each responsible for our own lives...something that I think has often been lost or waylaid in modern society.

Like rape victims?
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #72 on: May 08, 2008, 05:38:08 pm »
"Holding the victim accountable" is referring to the idea that we are each responsible for our own lives...something that I think has often been lost or waylaid in modern society.

Like rape victims?



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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #73 on: May 08, 2008, 06:05:05 pm »
First, @Verbatim:  I understand about the overreacting part.  It's still a hot button issue with a lot of people.  My main gripe with it, though, is how everyone conveniently forgets that European Jews weren't the only ones that got bulldozed into mass graves in recent history.  It wasn't even an isloated incident.  But most of all, it pisses me of because they don't deserve any special treatment just because they had the (mis)fortune to survive the event.

As far as the retardation goes...  Holding modern Jews responsible for the past attrocities of Jews is no different than holding modern day Nazis accountable for their attrocities.  The perps in both cases are dead and gone, but their ideological children are thriving.  I think both are fucktards, but that's just my opinion.  I'd have just a little more respect for them if they fessed up to the evil shit they do/did.


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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #74 on: May 08, 2008, 06:38:16 pm »
"Holding the victim accountable" is referring to the idea that we are each responsible for our own lives...something that I think has often been lost or waylaid in modern society.

Like rape victims?

Sure. Just like rape victims.
                     
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