Rev Roger Sermon #11: Land of the Yahoos

[Y.M. Hut]

Interestingly enough, I attended an anti-war rally held at my campus earlier today. Not a large crowd but it's not a large city, and there's mostly rednecks around here anyways. Considering it was -25 C without the wind (which was a real bitch btw) I figured it was a decent turnout. Now to my rant  

The world is learning my friends, in fact the world has been slowly learning since the end of US isolationism. The world has been learning that the United States is NOT free, is NOT democratic and is mainly selfish and ignorant.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the States are an Empire, the bully on the playground. But guess what, the other little kids start to get pissed off, on soon enough that bully gets the shit kicked outta them (pardon the language). The day will come when the US will fall, and some other power will rise in its place (I'm going to guess an Asian power). I just hope that sometime soon the world learns more, learns that the cycle has to stop, that we can't stop beating the shit out of each other, cause the bruises don't heal as easily as they used to.

[Z³]

You know, I'm not totally against the war on Iraq.

For one, I dont like Saddam Hussein.
For two, if this war is about economic power and oil... I dont feel like I have a problem with it.

What I have a problem with is the fact that A: our leader is an idiot and B: americans are selfish and self deluded.

If you drop bombs on a country, and then say that its because that country is run by a dictator who supports terrorism... what do you do about all of the other fascist states that exist in this day and age? Are we (americans) going to personally improve the way of life in the middle east... or how about africa/south america/asia/everywhere else in the 3rd world. Thats stupid, its not even a believable lie.

How about this? We (americans) drop bombs on Iraq and actually admit that its about Oil and Power. I'd be down for that, its not dishonest at all. If we're going to improve our status as world power, and take out some asshole, thats fine with me... but I wont support it if I'm being lied to and abused (Like I am.)

Thats how I feel right now.

[Z³]

I just think its stupid that the US is trying to delude itself into thinking its some kind of moral/ethical authority. Its not, nor does it need to be.

[Y.M. Hut]

I'm glad you don't support a war with Iraq, even if you're not totally against it. However, any war against Iraq, even if it's an honest one as you proposed, will mean the death of millions of honest Iraqi civilians. I'd love for the States to be honest about its foreign policy, but honesty doesn't entail them to destroy innocent lives.

Sure Saddam's a jerk, no bigger a jerk than Dubya, but he still needs to be dealt with firmly. How about the US invests all the money it would spend in taking down Saddam's regime and instead hire ONE guy to go out and kill Saddam. For God's Sake man, no one's that tough to kill, I mean we almost killed Hitler and he was much harder to get at. If Saddam's the problem, get Saddam. I'm sure if THE most powerful nation in the entire globe wanted a SINGLE person dead, they could have him dead. Maybe instead of US intelligence agencies investing all their budget on supporting the US drug industry they could spend a few million disposing the world of a feudal dictator.

But I'm being rational, the US isn't going after Iraq to free them of Saddam, they could easily get rid of Saddam. It's about politics, a war for the Dubya means popularity, take focus away from the home front (a war he's losing) and away from the disintegrating US economy.

Gulf War II will mean the death of thousands and potentially millions of bystanders, mainly Iraqi. It will be much uglier than Gulf War I, which wasn't necessarily pretty. This War is gonna be nasty, too many will die or have their lives ruined, and it doesn't matter whether or not they die honestly.

In short, Z^3, I'm kind of shocked that you would support a war if only the US government was honest about it. I wonder if the Iraqis are "down with" having their country decimated by US bombings (whose economy and infrastructre has already been destroyed by the strongest embargo in history). Now, I don't think Joe Q. Iraqi is too 'cool' with coming home from work and finding a US smart bomb smashed through his daughter's bedroom. Is it the Iraqis fault they're being oppressed? I would think not, they can be oppressed or dead, or if America has it their way oppressed then dead.

Now if I misinterpreted your post please correct me.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

You know, I'm not totally against the war on Iraq.

For one, I dont like Saddam Hussein.
For two, if this war is about economic power and oil... I dont feel like I have a problem with it.

All I can say in reply is:

1.  Saddam is a monster.  I don't like him either...but we have many monsters as ALLIES too, don't we?  Besides, who made us the world's cop?

2.  On the oil issue; please tell me you don't approve of using war as armed robbery writ large.  If we go in for oil, we are no different than Saddam was in 1990.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I just think its stupid that the US is trying to delude itself into thinking its some kind of moral/ethical authority. Its not, nor does it need to be.

Are you suggesting that we have all the authority we need because we CAN?

[Lister]

The question I'm asking myself is...  Is Saddam really that terrible?

Remember that about all the info we get about him are strongly biased western stories.

Sure he's an evil dictator, but SO IS EVERY OTHER LEADER OF ANY NATION.  

But the main problem I have about the war on Iraq is...
The fact that the US didn't have the common decency to finish their previous war before starting another one...

First Al-Qaeda or whatever destroyed some stuff in the US.
The US retaliates by paying a visit to Afghanistan.
so far so good, if MY country got attacked, I'd want some revenge as well...
And then suddenly Bin Laden and his Hooky Crew are out of the picture and it's all Saddam's fault.

Saddam was just sitting there in his Gulf-State, enjoying bossing people around and minding his own business, and the next minute he's promoted to the devil incarnate in the eyes of the western world.

SADDAM IS NO TERRORIST!
SADDAM DOES NOT SEND OUT TERRORISTS!
BIN LADEN AND SADDAM DON'T EVEN LIKE EACH OTHER!
He tried to expand his borders and his wallet a bit by attacking Kuweit a few years back, and got his ass kicked in return.
Now he just turned into a handy scapegoat.

I am and will remain 105% against the war on Iraq.
I don't give a shit about the thousands of possible dead innocents.
I just follow my instincts, and when every cell in my body screams that this war should not happen, then I listen to my genetic code.

Weapons of mass destruction my ass...  

oh, and

Are you suggesting that we have all the authority we need because we CAN?

This is the basics of all human behaviour, human culture, human evolution and human history.

[Z³]

I just think its stupid that the US is trying to delude itself into thinking its some kind of moral/ethical authority. Its not, nor does it need to be.

Are you suggesting that we have all the authority we need because we CAN?

Not exactly. I just notice how the people in politics who use morality and ethics as the basis of their standpoint are full of shit. Morality and Ethics has absolutely nothing to do with politics for these people, its just a tool that they use to manipulate the masses into self righteousness.

It had just occured to me that the united states remains blissfully ignorant about a lot of things. When september 11th happen we were urged not to let the terrorists win, not to change. Thats a little fucked up, because change is necessary. We need to understand why these people hate us enough to destroy our buildings, the american people NEED to know WHY things happen rather than just trusting to government to blow up the people responsible. So we go on, not understanding why the rest of the world hates us, secure in the belief that we are absolutely right and that anyone who isnt with us is against us.

Americans are arrogant and self righteous, and so are our politicians. Worse yet, americans are dishonest with themselves about all of this, they blame the rest of the world rather than looking inward and examining themselves.

If france wont support us, they support terrorism... etc

So what we have done, is gone on a vindictive rampage in the middle east, without understanding or educating ourselves to why the initial event happened in the first place. We pump ourselves up by buying flags, and patriotic T-shirts, and our president does everything his power to paint our enemies as the true form of evil (he's really colorful about that). So we get all pumped up on that too, because that makes us righteous.

Its disgusting.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So what we have done, is gone on a vindictive rampage in the middle east, without understanding or educating ourselves to why the initial event happened in the first place. We pump ourselves up by buying flags, and patriotic T-shirts, and our president does everything his power to paint our enemies as the true form of evil (he's really colorful about that). So we get all pumped up on that too, because that makes us righteous.

Its disgusting.

I would say that many of our politicians feel that way, and some of our more Rush Limbaugh-ish citizens are...but they do not do it in my name, though they remain convinced that they do.

[Lister]

Americans are arrogant and self righteous, and so are our politicians. Worse yet, americans are dishonest with themselves about all of this, they blame the rest of the world rather than looking inward and examining themselves.

Not just americans...
Just about every human being on this planet fits that description...
(when this sentence is taken out of the whole war-context)

And yes, of course I fit that description as much as anybody else.

Americans are just more extravagant about it in general.

But in the end, everyone thinks that they are right and the others are wrong, and blame others instead of themselves...

It can be on an individual level, but is most often seen as the mindless "US Vs THEM" mob mentality.  
The principle stays the same...

Everyone I know who is right always agrees with ME!
(Page 00032, bottom of page.  Not just a blank-space filler you know)

[MapleMan]

I dont think sadam is any more evil or a monster than any one of us... i iknow im gonna be accused of naievity (sp) etc but wth i just dont think anyone is...

[Z³]

I dont think sadam is any more evil or a monster than any one of us... i iknow im gonna be accused of naievity (sp) etc but wth i just dont think anyone is...

nah, saddam is pretty bad. When shiite muslims confronted him about some issues at one of his conferences he nonchalantly ordered them taken outside and shot. This was televised.

Yes, it was anti-iraq propaganda... but that sort of stuff is difficult to fake.

I might not support going to war with him, but he's still a dickhead.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I dont think sadam is any more evil or a monster than any one of us... i iknow im gonna be accused of naievity (sp) etc but wth i just dont think anyone is...

Oh, monsters exist, all right.  Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Hussien...they're out there.  The problem is, SH hasn't attacked us, and who made us the world's cop?

We have problems of our own.

[Z³]

I dont think sadam is any more evil or a monster than any one of us... i iknow im gonna be accused of naievity (sp) etc but wth i just dont think anyone is...

Oh, monsters exist, all right.  Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Hussien...they're out there.  The problem is, SH hasn't attacked us, and who made us the world's cop?

We have problems of our own.

Exactly.

[Y.M. Hut]

As soon as the World Trade Centers were taken down the first thought in my head was "That's just not right." But my second thought was "What did the Americans do to have this happen to them?"

I remember watching media coverage and hearing news anchor after news anchor explain the attacks on the basis of "they're jealous of our freedom", "they hate freedom", "they despise democracy". Who in their right mind would say anyone hates freedom? American media was assuming the terrorists did this act either unprovoked, or simply because they hated the "free world".

I'm sorry but planes don't just fall out of the sky. The attacks were not acts of aggression, they were acts of retalliation for 50 years of crippling US foreign policy. As much as the attacks were wrong in every sense of the word, it was the US who brought this upon themselves.

It seems that the US still holds that it is the terrorists who must be changed, who must be converted to democracy. But it is America who must change, it is the US who must take a policy of peace instead of war. The terrorism will not be curbed by more counter-attacks, it's a downwards spiral.