Black Sheep ARE still Sheep

[PeregrineBF]

Or convince them to be a salad.

What if the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is correct? What tools can we then use to create a true Mindfuck, if language by its very nature eliminates much of that concept? I think non-linguistic art is probably the best bet, but Jabberwock-like or scramblespeak writing might also work.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Should we really suppose that all machines are capable of independent thought and action without a major overhaul to their programming?

Capable?  No.

Is the potential there?  Yes.

how can you be so certain?

Because if we cannot believe that the machines are capable of reprogramming to the point of independence, then Operation: Mindfuck loses much of its purpose and we Discordians are resigned to fucking with the system just for the hell of it.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, but several of us, I think, are programmed to hope that individuals can be persuaded or tricked into becoming independent thinkers.

So then you believe that you're programmed to believe that humans can break their programming?

I love this rabbit hole

Assuming that I am human, I would say yes, because I do believe I have broken my programming. I could be wrong.

Now, machines, on the other hand... how does one convince a cabbage to be something else? I dunno, just leave me alone in my optimistic fantasyland!

LOL... Personally I like to think that we can too.

But, I disagree that O:MF loses its value if we don't have the ability to break our programming.

That is, a robot may not be able to reprogram itself, it might be a trusting machine, or a nonsense machine or a killing machine or a hating machine or a greyface machine or a 9-5working/suit-tiewearing/cubicle dwelling machine. Maybe it can't, not be a machine, but maybe O:MF can give the machine a new program. So maybe it will turn into a thinking machine, or a not-quite-as-serious machine, or a discordian machine, or maybe it will break their programs and let them think for themselves.

I hope its the last one.

Or convince them to be a salad.

What if the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is correct? What tools can we then use to create a true Mindfuck, if language by its very nature eliminates much of that concept? I think non-linguistic art is probably the best bet, but Jabberwock-like or scramblespeak writing might also work.

I think the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis supports the idea of mindfucking through language. That is, it holds forth that the individuals perceptions are heavily influenced by language. By manipulating language, we should be able to manipulate perception. IE reprogram...

Maybe.

[PeregrineBF]

True, but to what extent can the language be manipulated without becoming nonsense?
Also, what if we really can break our programming? Might we segfault? That would be bad, but very interestiKERNEL PANIC. NO CARRIER ++ATH0

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

True, but to what extent can the language be manipulated without becoming nonsense?
Also, what if we really can break our programming? Might we segfault? That would be bad, but very interestiKERNEL PANIC. NO CARRIER ++ATH0

Well, since this is all metaphor anyway, I would say that perhaps people do break their own programming (or someone breaks their programs for them), everything from psychotic breaks, to brainwashing to Stockholm syndrome... maybe.

Also, I think that words alone may quickly become nonsense... most O:MF's that I've been involved in tend to have some physical manifestation, not just vocal/semantic stuff... hrmmm.

[bones]

OMF is awesome even if all it does it teach people that words are nonsense. The memebombs at least are for that.
Heisenbergs uncertainty principle seems to me to suggest that every atom in the universe has free will and thinks for itself, but a brick has too many atoms in it for their individual free will to have any effect on a brick whatsoever. ie, Brick atoms appear and disappear, but a brick is very fucking static.
The brain is closer to the size of a brick, but maybe conscious thought is more the size of the pineal gland, or even a single molecule.

we're programmed by everything, some things from childhood are more powerful, some recent things change us more. I discovered Eris a year or so ago, and her program (ridiculous as it may seem, it's a program) helped me break SOME other programs, as did books by Leary and RAW. I don't believe in free will, or free thought, unless our 'consciousness' is in a single atom (independent?), and even that I'm skeptical of.
I am a computer, I have been fed programs all my life, and I'm lucky enough to have been fed more bizarre and interesting programs than most, that have led me to seek out new programs and break others that don't seem to help my thinking out. If you could break all your programs then you wouldn't react to any external stimuli, instead you would permanently act completely randomly or not at all.

Despite hating when artists say "everything's been done before" I don't really believe in new things, I just think old ideas can be mixed in different and better ways, brought back. Greg and Kerry didn't come up with new things, except for all the nonsense. Eris was OLD. Memes evolve, faster than genes but they don't just 'pop' out of thin air. Or maybe they do.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Bones, seeing a new poster produce actual, interesting, thoughtful content right off the bat is so refreshing I don't even know what to do with myself. I don't even know what to say except thank you, and welcome to PD.com!