Criticism of the BIP

[fomenter]

i have read Marx and it only works on paper (the Russians and every one else who has tried it got it wrong?)i have watched Marx "groucho" and prefer it over "Karl" i only brought it up because a Marxist is saying the bip move the system though self change and monkeywrenching it from within doesn't work (self change works  the second part may or may not) if the prison  bars of the commenter (self included) are not relevant to there perspective on the subject then please ignore

[Vene]

2.  We didn't make it obvious that the pamphlet was also a mirror.  Perhaps on a future edition, we should put "WE'RE IN PRISON, TOO" on the back cover, to fully acknowledge that we're not elitists that have found the solution and are pitying the masses, but that we have merely realized that we're in the same trap as everyone else. 

This.  Very much this.

Also, the Machine™ (to me) is associated with the Monkey Mind.  The xenophopic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does.  In this sense, even though "machines" have only existed for a few centuries, the Thing that is Machine™ goes back millenia.

At least as far back as people have been operating as social animals.  As far as a machine goes, I don't have a problem with there being a machine (because anarchy is a fucking useless idea), but it is an issue when it takes more to keep the machine running than what it produces.  It's far better for society to be a tool that serves the humans who made it then when the humans become slaves to the machine.  That's why I like the BIP, by being aware that we are a part of the machine, it can help us recognize when the machine is just using us instead of us using the machine.

Or I'm full of shit, decide for yourself.

[Verbal Mike]

I don't think anarchy necessarily means getting rid of The Machine. I think it's merely a way to drastically retune it. It would probably only be temporary, too.

[Daruko]

I don't think anarchy necessarily means getting rid of The Machine. I think it's merely a way to drastically retune it. It would probably only be temporary, too.

yeah, it usually only lasts for 2 turns.

[Verbal Mike]

I don't think anarchy necessarily means getting rid of The Machine. I think it's merely a way to drastically retune it. It would probably only be temporary, too.

yeah, it usually only lasts for 2 turns.

Unless you're Spiritual.

[Daruko]

I don't think anarchy necessarily means getting rid of The Machine. I think it's merely a way to drastically retune it. It would probably only be temporary, too.

yeah, it usually only lasts for 2 turns.

Unless you're Spiritual.

troof

[Vene]

I don't think anarchy necessarily means getting rid of The Machine. I think it's merely a way to drastically retune it. It would probably only be temporary, too.

OK, I can see that.  Maybe the anarchy machine would be so unlike our current machine that it would take a bit more to recognize it as a machine.

[LMNO]

I don't think anarchy necessarily means getting rid of The Machine. I think it's merely a way to drastically retune it. It would probably only be temporary, too.

OK, I can see that.  Maybe the anarchy machine would be so unlike our current machine that it would take a bit more to recognize it as a machine.

I dunno.

Since my conception of the Machine™ stems from the ancient brain characteristics of primates, even in an anarchist system, the old patterns would be present.

Cf: RAW's Militant Radical groups in I3! that had the same underlying power structures as the rest of society.

[Verbal Mike]

Yes. The state is a tribal monkey power-structure, and the groups trying to bring it down are tribal monkey power-structures too. It doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong, but it does mean they're necessarily the same on a very basic level.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The thing is, machines appear useful... as tools.

Machines, by definition are objects that transmit and modify energy. The 'social machine' might be seen as doing the same thing... the energies of millions and billions of humans appear modified and transmitted and used to do work (create and run a given society). The programming of ancient human beings also transmits and modifies energy, our own energy into preconceived buckets, energy into SEX, energy into TERRITORIAL DEFENSE, Etc Etc etc.

We need the machines, unless we truly want to do everything in life on our own.

I don't think anyone really wants to destroy the 'machine', but maybe some of us want to redirect its energy expenditure or ensure that the machine is a tool for humans, not the primary existence of humans. The machine, maybe, needs rebuilt for a new age...we may need to upgrade its technology... make it work better, faster and more efficiently a GREEN MACHINE. The less energy required by the Machine, the more energy would be retained by the source (US!) aka MOAR SLACK!  

[Daruko]

The thing is, machines appear useful... as tools.

Machines, by definition are objects that transmit and modify energy. The 'social machine' might be seen as doing the same thing... the energies of millions and billions of humans appear modified and transmitted and used to do work (create and run a given society). The programming of ancient human beings also transmits and modifies energy, our own energy into preconceived buckets, energy into SEX, energy into TERRITORIAL DEFENSE, Etc Etc etc.

We need the machines, unless we truly want to do everything in life on our own.

I don't think anyone really wants to destroy the 'machine', but maybe some of us want to redirect its energy expenditure or ensure that the machine is a tool for humans, not the primary existence of humans. The machine, maybe, needs rebuilt for a new age...we may need to upgrade its technology... make it work better, faster and more efficiently a GREEN MACHINE. The less energy required by the Machine, the more energy would be retained by the source (US!) aka MOAR SLACK!  

TITCM

NT:  How to bring about worldwide slack in 7 days or less!

[LMNO]

The thing is, machines appear useful... as tools.

Machines, by definition are objects that transmit and modify energy. The 'social machine' might be seen as doing the same thing... the energies of millions and billions of humans appear modified and transmitted and used to do work (create and run a given society). The programming of ancient human beings also transmits and modifies energy, our own energy into preconceived buckets, energy into SEX, energy into TERRITORIAL DEFENSE, Etc Etc etc.

We need the machines, unless we truly want to do everything in life on our own.

I don't think anyone really wants to destroy the 'machine', but maybe some of us want to redirect its energy expenditure or ensure that the machine is a tool for humans, not the primary existence of humans. The machine, maybe, needs rebuilt for a new age...we may need to upgrade its technology... make it work better, faster and more efficiently a GREEN MACHINE. The less energy required by the Machine, the more energy would be retained by the source (US!) aka MOAR SLACK!  

Agreed.  For me, in the same way that the BIP is inescapable, yet absolutely necessary, the Machine™ will always be around. 


The problem is, it currently uses the blood of innocents to keep it running.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The thing is, machines appear useful... as tools.

Machines, by definition are objects that transmit and modify energy. The 'social machine' might be seen as doing the same thing... the energies of millions and billions of humans appear modified and transmitted and used to do work (create and run a given society). The programming of ancient human beings also transmits and modifies energy, our own energy into preconceived buckets, energy into SEX, energy into TERRITORIAL DEFENSE, Etc Etc etc.

We need the machines, unless we truly want to do everything in life on our own.

I don't think anyone really wants to destroy the 'machine', but maybe some of us want to redirect its energy expenditure or ensure that the machine is a tool for humans, not the primary existence of humans. The machine, maybe, needs rebuilt for a new age...we may need to upgrade its technology... make it work better, faster and more efficiently a GREEN MACHINE. The less energy required by the Machine, the more energy would be retained by the source (US!) aka MOAR SLACK!  

Agreed.  For me, in the same way that the BIP is inescapable, yet absolutely necessary, the Machine™ will always be around. 


The problem is, it currently uses the blood of innocents to keep it running.

Hrmmm, blood of innocents is maybe slightly dramatic, but I'll give it a thumbs up anyway
I wonder how difficult it really is, to change the Machine? People seem to have done it in the past and maybe some still do it today. Communes that existed in the 1700's and 1800's in the US might be said to have created unique machines, completely separate from the larger machine from outside. The Amish have built their own machine (but don't tell them that, they'll stop using it!), the Utopia groups that have gone off and built their own community and have redesigned their own social machine to use energy differently. Temporary Autonomous Zones might be areas where a new/different machine gets built.

I suppose the first question that most of those groups had to answer, though, might have been "How do we want our machine to operate? Where should it get energy and how should it expend energy?"

Maybe that's the first real step.

[Vene]

The thing is, machines appear useful... as tools.

Machines, by definition are objects that transmit and modify energy. The 'social machine' might be seen as doing the same thing... the energies of millions and billions of humans appear modified and transmitted and used to do work (create and run a given society). The programming of ancient human beings also transmits and modifies energy, our own energy into preconceived buckets, energy into SEX, energy into TERRITORIAL DEFENSE, Etc Etc etc.

We need the machines, unless we truly want to do everything in life on our own.

I don't think anyone really wants to destroy the 'machine', but maybe some of us want to redirect its energy expenditure or ensure that the machine is a tool for humans, not the primary existence of humans. The machine, maybe, needs rebuilt for a new age...we may need to upgrade its technology... make it work better, faster and more efficiently a GREEN MACHINE. The less energy required by the Machine, the more energy would be retained by the source (US!) aka MOAR SLACK! 

That's pretty much what I was trying to say a few posts earlier.

[Cramulus]

found this on the web:

http://starzend.livejournal.com/2008/02/22/

Guess what.
I was wandering round the internet, surprising right?

well, I came across Postergasm (My confined space > posterGasm) which is of course worth a look, but not really relevent to this post.

From postergasm I came across Black Iron Prison, which is supposed to be an "updating" of the Principa Discordia, (principa discordia being the "holy" book of discordinism, the joke that might be a religion or the religion that might be a joke. you decide) and as I was at work had nothing better to do I read it. its short, only 46 pages long.

Wow, they missed the point, or missed what made the earlier work great.
Sure, this contains refrences to lolcats and sure, they acknolege that they have stripped out the humour so people get the message but now it just comes across as a bunch of bitching!

Okay, it is now 20 mins later and I just had to deal with customers. With that time I have had to think I can only assume I'm missing something and will have to give BIP a re-read when I get home and find myself free of distractions.

Still, bitching aside from about page 39 onward, its actualy well written.
The section was entitled something like the rought guide to freedom.
This short section does start with a quote which in proper discordian tradition (for the first time in the document) implies you should not nessecarily believe what you read.

Did I have a point?
Its now about one hour and two minuites after I started writing this post, and I have completly forgotten what I was going to say.

Yay work!