Criticism of the BIP

[Doloras LaPicho]

I must say, you guys are far easier to talk to than the current crop of ignorant Bobbies who call themselves "SubGeniuses". Anyone who's read the CM blog for a while will remember what happened when we tried to engage them in polemic. I should also make it clear that, while I wrote a tirade on parts of BIP that pissed me off, I think it is a very good thing that BIP exists, in that to my knowledge it's the first piece of original Discordian literature since Illuminatus!. There's only so long that people can rehash the insights of RAW, Mal-2, Thornley etc before it begins to look like early Christianity with more dope-smoking - so kudos for the authors for at least making an effort.

A bit of clarification: I suppose the point I was getting at with "the MACHINE (tm) has only existed for 150 years" was that not that ideology and "soft power" social control didn't exist before then - far from it - but that the rules of the game were entirely different in the pre-capitalist era, when similar processes worked through priesthoods and bureaucracies rather than memetic technology. I think that's what I would consider the unique contribution of Marxism to this kind of cultural/memetic theory - the idea that the rules of the game as we know it are intimately bound in such recent-and-therefore-not-eternal phenomena as transnational corporations, the universality of wage and salaried labour, the mass consumer market, etc, and that therefore solutions dreamt up before the early 19th century are just anachronistic.

Is it wrong for us to be self-directed, or must we let float listless in the sea of humanity, waiting for a revolution to come along?

Well, revolutions don't "come along". Ché Guevara said "if you're a revolutionary, make a revolution". That's a hopelessly optimistic formula in itself (and led directly to Ché getting himself killed), but there's always something that can be done right now to attempt to get rebellious ideas into mass circulation.

[Golden Applesauce]

Most of what I liked about the BIP were the parts about the actual Black Iron Prison itself - how people limit themselves  through their perceptions of what they are supposed to be, putting themselves into stereotypes, accidentally picking up bits of memetic shrapnel (okay, that was a later thought, but inspired by the BIP) that change the way they (we) think without realizing it.  It's inspired me to keep better track of where my ideas come from, and to make sure I agree with them before passing them on to other people.

I didn't like the elitism, or the bits that portrayed The Authority as a Big Brother organization profiling people who attend rallies, etc.  I also didn't like the part close to the beginning about 'the con' or something (sorry TGRR.)  The con isn't the political system - it's that the political system is the problem.  There are a lot of problems in this world, and while some certainly come from governments and other institutions, more come from yourself and people closer to you.  The Establishment can't make me think in narrow, pre-defined ruts - I can.

The BIP isn't a revolutionary document, it's a radical document.  It isn't about overthrowing the establishment, it's about creating your own establishment around you, starting with yourself.  Mass action certainly can do things, and the things it can do it does effectively.  Mass action can have effects on laws, but rarely on individuals.  Take the gay rights movements - it has gotten some legislation, but no amount of protest is going to make someone less homophobic.  You know what does that?  Having friends or family who are gay - and realizing that homosexuality doesn't matter.  You can reach out to people around you, and change hearts and minds one person at a time, leading by example.  We aren't trying to reshape society; Discordja is no inner circle of memetics experts trying to replace a world-wide culture they consider toxic with the ones they like.  We're changing our immediate environments, talking to people near us.

-

On the bit about keeping your head down, I mostly disagreed with it.  There is a little truth there, though.  If you act like a crazy radical, people will treat you like a crazy radical.  And that means that if you say something interesting, people dismiss it out of hand as just crazy radical talk.  Pranks become 'oh, it's just that one weird kid.'  It's marginalizing yourself.  Don't marginalize yourself; be heard.  Speak softly to the people near you, someone might listen.  There's a balance between being High Crazy and a conformist where people still take you seriously but you don't (necessarily) have to take them seriously.

[Faust]

Well, revolutions don't "come along". Ché Guevara said "if you're a revolutionary, make a revolution". That's a hopelessly optimistic formula in itself (and led directly to Ché getting himself killed), but there's always something that can be done right now to attempt to get rebellious ideas into mass circulation.

I like to think that in an age of nearly instantaneous cheap worldwide communication, the rules are changing again, and we have a hell of a lot of new toys to play rebel with.
Welcome to the board Deloras LaPicho, in our current run of new members you certainly stand out against well against the last couple of months crop.

[Verbal Mike]

If you act like a crazy radical, people will treat you like a crazy radical.  And that means that if you say something interesting, people dismiss it out of hand as just crazy radical talk.  Pranks become 'oh, it's just that one weird kid.'  It's marginalizing yourself.  Don't marginalize yourself; be heard.  Speak softly to the people near you, someone might listen.  There's a balance between being High Crazy and a conformist where people still take you seriously but you don't (necessarily) have to take them seriously.

This is the point - not keeping your head down, merely keeping your head in a position to foment change.

[Adios]

Well, revolutions don't "come along". Ché Guevara said "if you're a revolutionary, make a revolution". That's a hopelessly optimistic formula in itself (and led directly to Ché getting himself killed), but there's always something that can be done right now to attempt to get rebellious ideas into mass circulation.

I like to think that in an age of nearly instantaneous cheap worldwide communication, the rules are changing again, and we have a hell of a lot of new toys to play rebel with.
Welcome to the board Deloras LaPicho, in our current run of new members you certainly stand out against well against the last couple of months crop.

I personally welcome the differing opinion from someone not on the inside track of creating the BIP writings. I say we can use it to alter some wording and make the concepts of the BIP more comprehensible to others. Not saying make it too easy, some amount of individual thought is required or it will end up with meaningless dittos from mindless followers.

Revolution? Mass revolution? Nope.
We are out publicized, out armed, out manned and can be shut up far too easily and shipped out. Doloras you mentioned remaining under the radar and mass revolution at the same time. If you seriously want to remain under the radar and off the profile sheets then consider NOT having a mass revolution party. It would be seriously crashed by guys in black SUV's and suits. And greasing the wheels of the Machine™ is perfectly acceptable as long as the grease is full of sand. The only way to get close enough to do this is by blending in and appearing to be full of desire to grease the wheel.

Welcome to pd!


Edited to add I seem to have strong Subgenius inclinations.

[Verbal Mike]

Also, Doloras, I don't think THE MACHINE changed so dramatically in the 19th century. The change seems essentially superficial, if you ask me.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

You know, I'd love to see material added to the BIP, to reflect conversations like this. Some of what's been posted in here would make a nice addition to an appendix.

Maybe at some point enough material could be collected to create a "BIP Extended Version" that could be put on Lulu.

[Cramulus]

I agree. My advice is to collect material for inclusion and centralize it somewhere. (like a thread or the BIP wiki)

then, the next step: the .doc of the BIP pamphlet is easy to download and edit.

[LMNO]

Hi Dolores.

I found your criticism to be accurate, in the following ways:

1.  No, we didn't offer solutions.  Any blanket solution to an individual's problems other than "think for yourself, schmuck" would be riddled with oversimplifications and non-applicable ideas.

2.  We didn't make it obvious that the pamphlet was also a mirror.  Perhaps on a future edition, we should put "WE'RE IN PRISON, TOO" on the back cover, to fully acknowledge that we're not elitists that have found the solution and are pitying the masses, but that we have merely realized that we're in the same trap as everyone else. 

Now:
I would disagree that we are against Mass Actions.  However, it would seem like the optimal place to be the next time a WTO riot breaks out would be the guy in the suit behind the cops surriptitiously letting the air out of their tires, not the guy with 20 facial piercings staring down a taser.

Also, the Machine™ (to me) is associated with the Monkey Mind.  The xenophopic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does.  In this sense, even though "machines" have only existed for a few centuries, the Thing that is Machine™ goes back millenia.

[fomenter]

Also, the Machine™ (to me) is associated with the Monkey Mind.  The xenophopic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does.  In this sense, even though "machines" have only existed for a few centuries, the Thing that is Machine™ goes back millenia.

"The xenophobic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does."
didnt marxism create millions of the above mentioned monkey minds who ended up killing millions of there fellow monkeys? how dose Marxism in any way help undo the bip when it seems to be just a big collectivist prison ideology

[Verbal Mike]

SHUT UP THE RUSSIANS GOT IT ALL WRONG THATS NOT WHAT MARX INTENDED DID YOU EVER EVEN READ MARX YOURSELF?!

-Verb,
never read Marx, but used to argue this nonetheless, for a while

p.s
Nigel and Cram win

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Also, the Machine™ (to me) is associated with the Monkey Mind.  The xenophopic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does.  In this sense, even though "machines" have only existed for a few centuries, the Thing that is Machine™ goes back millenia.

"The xenophobic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does."
didnt marxism create millions of the above mentioned monkey minds who ended up killing millions of there fellow monkeys? how dose Marxism in any way help undo the bip when it seems to be just a big collectivist prison ideology

"Because we're subject to the programs of the ancient human beings" - "We Decide" Dr. Steel

[LMNO]

Also, the Machine™ (to me) is associated with the Monkey Mind.  The xenophopic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does.  In this sense, even though "machines" have only existed for a few centuries, the Thing that is Machine™ goes back millenia.

"The xenophobic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does."
didnt marxism create millions of the above mentioned monkey minds who ended up killing millions of there fellow monkeys? how dose Marxism in any way help undo the bip when it seems to be just a big collectivist prison ideology

Why are you talking about Marxism?

[Voodoo]

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

As far as I am aware, we are the Machine™.