What makes us so different?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

the memes from the PD are basically about jokes, and if they spew them here, nobody is laughing.

I disagree.

At any rate, it does seem, to me, that we often presume that a n00b NEEDS our Map, or that their own map is somehow wrong, because it involves 23PINEALOMGZLAWLOFFIVES... yet, that map may be just as useful as ZOMGBiPGSPBlackSwan! to some people.

shit, ratatosk... what's the use of even discussing stuff with you if you act like you totally understand it and then weeks later appear to have completely forgotten/not learned a thing? (sorry i may sound a bit annoyed, but i did spend effort in those discussions)

remember when i explained you how, for example, Leary's 8 circuit model of the mind is old and has been surpassed by newer and better theories in psychology? just because someone had an idea once doesn't mean it will stay an equally useful map as any other until the end of times!

do you ever invalidate a map?
[/quote]

Some maps are absolutely invalid. I think Leary's map is useful to reference some things and utter horseshit (esp after the 4th circuit). However, if the map works for someone else, then what the fuck business is it of mine? Perhaps they grok what I don't. I invalidate the maps that don't seem to provide useful data or correlate with the experiences I've had. I don't know what else we could base the value of maps on.

or do you say all of them are equally possible/useful, mr model agnostic? then how about theories that are being developed, are all prior versions starting at the initial spark of inspiration just as useful as the finished theory? even if the theory hit a few dead end streets along the way? how does that work?

I tend to reject the idea that any model is True, or that any model provides us with THE BEST X. Mostly, cause I figure that map works, but only for the people that grok its symbols... the model works only for the people that read that sort of model. POEE Discordianism, for me, seems like a useful map, for you it doesn't... that's fine and cool. I think we can agree that location, society etc. all impact the usability of any given map. As of yet, I have not found a map that models nonsense as a valid reality grid nearly as well as the PD.

I'm all for publishing as many maps as we can make of the territory, I'm all for making them freely available and accessible to anyone, I'm all for challenging whatever maps anyone uses (including the BiP and PinealFnords)... but I do think that (at least occasionally) we seem to think that handing someone a map and saying "use this", might be a bit of Group Think.

well i think that's a bad idea. if you just consider everything equally useful and valid, it'll be super easy to simply flood the meme-o-sphere with maps, regardless of their content.

the end result?

nobody can consider all those maps seriously anymore, simply for lack of information-processing time (i have a limited speed with which i can read and think), which in the end will cause people to simply stick to the one they grew up with, or the first one they use to rebel with, or just pick any random one.

Precisely.

It seems silly to me, to think that we should have only a few maps and then that we should take those maps seriously.

I think we all agree that (in the instance being generally discussed) the territory being described could be considered the inability of humans to be completely free of all restrictions of perception and biology.

The BiP presents this in one map: Your reality is like a prison, you're a prisoner, maybe you can get a bigger cell, Think.
The PD presents another map: Your reality is what you want to do, you're in charge of ordering and disordering, Laugh.

As far as I can tell, both maps are valid. Both maps tell us something about the territory. And there are lots of other ways we can map out the territory.

Your reality is like a spaceship, a self contained system that allows only limited views of the outside... but with it you can explore the Undiscovered Country called Reality. Explore.

II think that too is a valid map.

GSP = Valid Map

All of them seem to me as valid, all of them seem, to me, as useful. None of them, as far as I can tell present a More True view.

Rather they seem complimentary to each other, if taken together it says "Think, Laugh, Explore" and people can choose one, or all.

nobody can consider all those maps seriously anymore, simply for lack of information-processing time (i have a limited speed with which i can read and think), which in the end will cause people to simply stick to the one they grew up with, or the first one they use to rebel with, or just pick any random one.

Ah, so we don't want to confuse the plebes, better if we pick the maps and tell them which ones to use? I know you better than that, 000

Our discussion weeks ago gave me a more useful perspective. I gained an appreciation for the BiP model that I didn't have before... but that appreciation exists because it fits with these other maps in my head... that map alone would simply not fit with what I've experienced in life, nor would it provide much in the way of useful information. In conjunction with POEE maps and my little spaceship map, suddenly it does make sense, because it's modeling an Aspect of what I think the territory might be. It models the sort of reality I used to live in (and I think that's one of the reasons I didn't like it), but it doesn't fit with where I am now, the POEE or spaceship model seems to fit better. All three of them together, though seem to map out a pretty good view of what I've experienced in the territory. Probably a few extra maps wouldn't hurt either.

For me more maps are better, if I really want to understand the territory.

If I wanted to really understand the territory "Columbus Ohio" I would probably have a street map, a topographical map, a census map, if I really wanted to get a deep understanding of the territory, I'd also grap a map of the utilities/sewage, maybe a bus route map, possibly a map of average incomes in neighborhoods.

I don't think that's confusing or blinding... its simply more maps with more information.

[Cramulus]

I can only answer what makes this place different for me, and why I hang around here and not elsewhere:


1. action potential. Ideas are often translated into IRL ACTION.

2. Operation: Mindfuck. My favorite forum, and it's the one I check first when I sign on in the morning. It's a good mix of pranks which make me lol and pranks which have some "good cause" (usually an absurd one) attached to them. I like projects and activities, and this is one of the best places on the net to think up / DO them

3. A group dedicated to coming up with new jokes rather than laughing at other people's jokes. We're not passive observers of culture! We're out here on the fringe, MAKING it. we don't always succeed, but damnit, we're actually TRYING. Can't say that for most other internet communities.

4. A broad spectrum of interests and ideas, so you can find something here whether you like discordia, memetics, stupid jokes, cooking, trolling, culture, whatever... there are people here who participate in some parts and not others, and bring unique things to the pot. and often, people are interested in learning new stuff, so they get to experiment with stuff they're exposed to from the board. For example, I've learned a few recepies from the cooking board, and I probably wouldn't have heard of them otherwise. It makes for a very vibrant and vital community.

5. people seem to like doing my bidding and spreading my memes 

[Raphaella]

  < That'll teach ya!

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I can only answer what makes this place different for me, and why I hang around here and not elsewhere:


1. action potential. Ideas are often translated into IRL ACTION.

2. Operation: Mindfuck. My favorite forum, and it's the one I check first when I sign on in the morning. It's a good mix of pranks which make me lol and pranks which have some "good cause" (usually an absurd one) attached to them. I like projects and activities, and this is one of the best places on the net to think up / DO them

3. A group dedicated to coming up with new jokes rather than laughing at other people's jokes. We're not passive observers of culture! We're out here on the fringe, MAKING it. we don't always succeed, but damnit, we're actually TRYING. Can't say that for most other internet communities.

4. A broad spectrum of interests and ideas, so you can find something here whether you like discordia, memetics, stupid jokes, cooking, trolling, culture, whatever... there are people here who participate in some parts and not others, and bring unique things to the pot. and often, people are interested in learning new stuff, so they get to experiment with stuff they're exposed to from the board. For example, I've learned a few recepies from the cooking board, and I probably wouldn't have heard of them otherwise. It makes for a very vibrant and vital community.

5. people seem to like doing my bidding and spreading my memes 

Awesome response.

[nostalgicBadger]

Point taken. Cram, you should organize something cool to do IRL. Forum trolling is totally not my thing, and I'm getting tired of writing odd messages on things with my Sharpie and drawing monocles and moustaches on my bills.

Edit: I will never get tired of these things. But seriously...

[Cain]

Assumption One: that we are 'any different' from others.

Its entirely possible we fall within a medium/higher range of a perfectly normal scale of skills, only that through memetic propagation, peer pressure and other factors we have managed to dissuade most of those on the lower end of the scale from being present.

Assumption two: that whatever could mark us out as being either higher on the scale or indeed off it is something we all share in common.  Its entirely possible this is not the case and in fact it is a multiplicity of skills and expertise that contribute to an overall higher group extelligence that otherwise would not exist.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Did you just insult my extelligence?
         \\

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Assumption One: that we are 'any different' from others.

Its entirely possible we fall within a medium/higher range of a perfectly normal scale of skills, only that through memetic propagation, peer pressure and other factors we have managed to dissuade most of those on the lower end of the scale from being present.

Assumption two: that whatever could mark us out as being either higher on the scale or indeed off it is something we all share in common.  Its entirely possible this is not the case and in fact it is a multiplicity of skills and expertise that contribute to an overall higher group extelligence that otherwise would not exist.

PD.com as a memetic entity?

Ohhhh.......

[Cramulus]

Point taken. Cram, you should organize something cool to do IRL.

NO U 



SRSLY though, as much as I organize projects, pranks, and missions, I hope that win lose or draw, it serves as an inspiration for others to get off their asses and do it for themselves. See also: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=16552.0

PD needs more leader-types! If you don't like PD, make it into what you want. Too much trolling? It comes and goes in waves. You can't change people's attitude towards trolling, but you CAN launch projects which suggest a course of action you'd enjoy more. Want more IRL projects? We are your personal army, if your idea is fun and easy to do. That's what the Golden Apple Seed Missions are all about.

[Triple Zero]

Assumption One: that we are 'any different' from others.

Its entirely possible we fall within a medium/higher range of a perfectly normal scale of skills, only that through memetic propagation, peer pressure and other factors we have managed to dissuade most of those on the lower end of the scale from being present.

Assumption two: that whatever could mark us out as being either higher on the scale or indeed off it is something we all share in common.  Its entirely possible this is not the case and in fact it is a multiplicity of skills and expertise that contribute to an overall higher group extelligence that otherwise would not exist.

PD.com as a memetic entity?

Ohhhh.......

yeah we are. didn't you ever notice?

i told verb in this (or another?) thread, how his thoughts of "what would peedee think of this" is kinda egregor-like.

we are (as i explained LMNO in the $0.99 thread) also a Mastermind Group, as defined in the AoM.

and we're a kind of superpersonal organism, with a very strong immune system (you also want to stay out of the range of our "sting" )

we are the discordian network. and the stfupid cabal. and central GASM command (even though we try not to be).

and fuck damn we are AWESOME AS FUCK

(the last not having much to do with being a memetic entity, but it's still scientific fact)

[Verbal Mike]

In fact, it is so true, it is even also an alchemical truth.

[Vene]

Assumption One: that we are 'any different' from others.

Its entirely possible we fall within a medium/higher range of a perfectly normal scale of skills, only that through memetic propagation, peer pressure and other factors we have managed to dissuade most of those on the lower end of the scale from being present.

Assumption two: that whatever could mark us out as being either higher on the scale or indeed off it is something we all share in common.  Its entirely possible this is not the case and in fact it is a multiplicity of skills and expertise that contribute to an overall higher group extelligence that otherwise would not exist.

PD.com as a memetic entity?

Ohhhh.......

yeah we are. didn't you ever notice?

i told verb in this (or another?) thread, how his thoughts of "what would peedee think of this" is kinda egregor-like.

we are (as i explained LMNO in the $0.99 thread) also a Mastermind Group, as defined in the AoM.

and we're a kind of superpersonal organism, with a very strong immune system (you also want to stay out of the range of our "sting" )

we are the discordian network. and the stfupid cabal. and central GASM command (even though we try not to be).

and fuck damn we are AWESOME AS FUCK

(the last not having much to do with being a memetic entity, but it's still scientific fact)

You mean we're not a cult?  I thought I was joining a cult!  I want my damn money back!

[Verbal Mike]

Okay, I'll give you a 100% refund of what you paid: DOODLY SQUAT, HAHA!

[/daruko]

[Professor Mu-Chao]

This is a great discussion.

The map metaphor never ceases to inspire me. I suppose that dispensing with maps altogether is the goal of Taoism, but in reality they are just looking at another map (a sometimes interesting one, admittedly) and are claiming it is the territory. It makes you wonder what the nature of the territory "really" is, and whether it is even possible to see it.

To dangerously extend the metaphor, think of taboos as "Here There Be Dragons" spots and concepts newly encountered as unmapped roads and towns. Does the style of the map you are using when you break a taboo, or encounter a new town, travel with you to the other maps when you decide to switch to a new one? Do you have to break the taboo again to know what it looks like on this map, or can you extrapolate?

Sorry... I think I got high off this metaphor.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

This is a great discussion.

The map metaphor never ceases to inspire me. I suppose that dispensing with maps altogether is the goal of Taoism, but in reality they are just looking at another map (a sometimes interesting one, admittedly) and are claiming it is the territory. It makes you wonder what the nature of the territory "really" is, and whether it is even possible to see it.

To dangerously extend the metaphor, think of taboos as "Here There Be Dragons" spots and concepts newly encountered as unmapped roads and towns. Does the style of the map you are using when you break a taboo, or encounter a new town, travel with you to the other maps when you decide to switch to a new one? Do you have to break the taboo again to know what it looks like on this map, or can you extrapolate?

Sorry... I think I got high off this metaphor.

This is good stuff Mu-Chao, dunno how I missed it.

I think there are still plenty of "Here There Be Dragons" areas on most maps... Hell, even scientists use them (the GUT, the mechanics of Abiogenesis, what made the Bang Big... etc).  In some maps, the areas may be so marked, because they don't want you going there. In other areas it might be because they don't know what is there. Once science mapped the human body with the brain as a radiator for the blood.

I have begun to wonder if we truly ever 'switch to a new map', as opposed to simply bringing another map up in a tab and focusing on it. Do we ever discard older maps completely?