Biblie Busting vs. Darwin Deconstructing

[BootyBay]

http://www.reasons.org/tnrtb/2008/06/02/evolution-as-mythology-part-5-of-5-conclusion/
This is a somewhat neutral look at creation theory vs. evolution.  It explains that both share something in common: faith.  It sucks that that has to be true, but, somehow, I believe it (I have faith that it takes faith for our 2 current theories of the origin of life). 

I do believe there is a strong element of chance involved in the origin of mankind, but it is not as simple as Lord Boldemort building atoms out of wood in his workshop and creating the world's first humans (where did the animals come from?).  So, there literally needs to be some grand explanation (even if it's simple) for how we (and they, the furry woodland creatures) got here.  It could be aliens (please, Aliens, let it be aliens!), it could be God (in that some Universe or galaxy is God... or perhaps even the laws of Nature) or it could be totally, completely, undeniably random chance (even though 100% randomness is, and always will be, just an idea).  So, whatever your bias is will most likely lead you to whatever theory you believe in (I go for the mathematical/scientific kinds).  But, it is not an arbitrary belief, this belief in the Origin of the Species.  No, it affects you and everyone else, like it or not.  So (I use the word 'so' alot), choose, but choose wisely.  The real grail, er.. Theory will bring you life.  The false one will take it from you... (just like Diet Coke).

[Requia ☣]

Why should it take faith to think evolution is correct?  I've seen some of the damned fossils myself, seen replicas of others, have entire books filled with pictures of hominid skulls, spent time studying these things, and know enough math to understand how its all possible.  From all this I've determined that, short of massive conspiracy (which I'm not paranoid enough for) and/or god fucking with us (Decent chance of this), evolution fits the evidence, and nothing else does (though there are a lot of parts of evolution which are still in question of course).

Intelligent Design does pose a slight chance of corresponding to reality (its arguments that evolution is not possible are pure fallacy of course), but there is no evidence of this at the moment, and nobody will run the experiments that are necessary to find out.

[Verbal Mike]

Evolution does not need faith whatsoever. It does, however, require an ability to understand how small things can be huge things over a huge span of time. It also requires not ignoring obvious evidence. (Like that recent experiment where a group of bacteria spontaneously evolved a trait that would normally set them apart from their species - after thousands of generations. There's a thread about it somewhere here, called "evolution proven once again" or something.)

[BootyBay]

Evolution in its totality requires faith.  Why?  Because the "missing links" are still missing.  Evolution in its simplest elements is an obvious truth.

[BootyBay]

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/04/one_step_forward_two_steps_bac.html
Explanation/evidence of my claim (on the missing links).
Let me clarify for a second: a lot of the components of Evolution are absolutely "true" (in a scientific sense).  We have ample evidence for them (drug resistant bacteria being one example).  However, the totality of evolution has never been demonstrated to be "true."  My guess is that it never will be - seeing as how it is (to me anyway) against common sense (species changing at constant rates despite environmental changes?), and, therefore, is less likely to be valid.

[Requia ☣]

Evolution in its totality requires faith.  Why?  Because the "missing links" are still missing.  Evolution in its simplest elements is an obvious truth.

Name a single missing link, anywhere in human evolution path (I don't know non human paths well enough to provide counter examples).

[Thurnez Isa]

Fossilization is incredibaly rare so your always going to have gaps in the fossil record

and you could only make conclusions on fossils you found, not on fossils you didn't find

[Reverend Ju Ju Booze]

IMHO, believing in evolution doesn't require faith, believing that big bang, randomness or whatever is not a got is at thestarting point does.
I too have seen the fossils, and artificial selection, survival of the fittest and so on.I've not seen the trigger of it, so that trigger requires faith just like God does, one could say it plays God's role in my system.
Missing links? Fossilization requires some special condition, it's not like every single corpse becomes a fossil, so missing links still missing doesn't ask for my faith, actually they are logically implied by nature and geology.
Also, a creationist theory is that man is not "fittest" so it could not survive.If it does is only because of its intelligence (soul) but since you can't develop thought if you extinct, man must have appeared alredy intelligent. Made in the image of God.Well, we think at "man" as at ourselves, metopolitans, but man is in no way inferior to apes if developed that way, if we were primitives we'd be all like this guy, or dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVQNt64PxfE

So I don't need faith to believe Darwin, and for what started it all, and what was before Time and Being I'll answer with Ozzy Osbourne:
"Don't ask me, I don't know"

[Thurnez Isa]

Missing links? Fossilization requires some special condition, it's not like every single corpse becomes a fossil, so missing links still missing doesn't ask for my faith, actually they are logically implied by nature and geology.

also don't disregard that there aren't the number Paleontologists that doing field work right now as people give credit for... less then archeologist for example...
field work is expensive and long (some expeditions last for months)
gaps in the record *is* what you would expect
actually we're lucky we have as much information as we have

[Thurnez Isa]

Also, a creationist theory is that man is not "fittest" so it could not survive.If it does is only because of its intelligence (soul) but since you can't develop thought if you extinct, man must have appeared alredy intelligent. Made in the image of God.Well, we think at "man" as at ourselves, metopolitans, but man is in no way inferior to apes if developed that way, if we were primitives we'd be all like this guy, or dead.

its not so much our intelligence that gave primates an early edge (intelligence gave homo Sapiens and edge over primates) it was the adaptability they had during when times were rough and food was scarce
the ability to eat meat, roots, plants, use hands to make devices to peal apart bone for marrow, sticks for ants, scavage... plus we're pretty inquisitive... and being inquisitive helps us find all sorts of crap... like you could image our primate ancestors probably figured out that vultures fly over dead animals (food), that if we stuck together we could scare off other preditors, and that its probably not the best idea to go down to river bed for a drink without scoping it out first

As for the big bang I remember reading something that they found some evidence for it
but i dont remember much about that article and i dont think i understood it at the time

[Reverend Ju Ju Booze]

They have found evidence that galaxyies stars etc. are moving the way they would if big bang actually occurred..
So big bang is almost surely happened, if and how it started Being and Matter and Time and .. is still unproven.
It's not like I believe that everithing can be found out anyway, and before the bang pressure and gravitation and temperature were so different from the ones we know that most likely phisics as we know it didn't apply..no surprise if we'll never find out what "creation" really means...
that's far from a bug in the system though, it's again logically implied in the system that creation is hard (maybe impossible) to explain

[Thurnez Isa]

They have found evidence that galaxyies stars etc. are moving the way they would if big bang actually occurred..
So big bang is almost surely happened, if and how it started Being and Matter and Time and .. is still unproven.

Yah that could have been it
i have a recent astronomy book that discuses the big bang
but its under a pile of science books that i have to get to first

to be honest astronomy intrests me cause for its "coolness" factor but if i get another geology or paleontology book in the near future unfortunately that book goes further down the list

[Friar Puck]

Intelligent Design does pose a slight chance of corresponding to reality (its arguments that evolution is not possible are pure fallacy of course), but there is no evidence of this at the moment, and nobody will run the experiments that are necessary to find out.

What experiments are these?
I'll lend a hand or resources, if of course we aren't proving a negative.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

My only issue with evolution and humans evolving from monkeys is.....

1. Why are there still monkeys?
2. Why are there no goups still evolving from said monkeys?

[AFK]

They finally wised up?