Vs. Organized Religion

[Requia ☣]

I was raised Catholic.  I sometimes think I'm the only ex-Catholic who doesn't have any bitterness over it.  Except maybe the Bishop, he was a spag, but I'd already left the church by the time i heard him speak.  When I was little I believed the things I was told, about God and Jesus and the creation.   (Can't remember ever believing in Santa though I pretended for a long time, because I thought they'd stop giving the presents if I admitted it).  I didn't really believe in the faith sense though, and had a lot of questions, like "How do you know God is the good guy and Satan the bad, except because God told you?"  I also learned to keep my mouth fucking shut about said questions, and replaced ideas I had been told while young, or read in the bible, with more modern knowledge as it came along.

I never liked the idea of Atheism, a product of always being exposed to atheist characters in religious fiction who were just as irrational as the bible thumpers (who, in my blissful youth, I was convinced were a dying breed), but I jumped to deism, and later to agnosticism, as soon as I heard of the ideas.  Eventually I fell in with an mostly atheist crowd online, learned that I hate Dawkins, and then joined the Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic, because for some reason, I liked the idea of a semi organized group.  In fact I liked it enough that I decided to get ordained.  There's not much in the way of criteria for this, you just have to write the head of the church and convince him that you have good reasons for wanting it, so I set about creating my own process, part of which was going to be to write a paper depending the standpoint.  A lot had already been done on this, and I decided to focus on a viewpoint that I hadn't seen discussed before, namely Gnosticism (Sethian/Valentinian sects), I didn't know anything about it going in, I had just heard that Gnostics believed in an evil God (which is sortof correct but way way off overall), as I studied it more, I found I could not find a way to dismiss it as irrelevant, and worse than that, it was actually quite plausible.  So I fell in with the Ecclesia Gnostica, found I was too lazy to really be involved, and had way too many doubts to really throw myself at it besides, and eventually ended up here instead.

PS That One Guy, Could I get you to explain what you mean by Gnostic at all, there's about 50,000 different ways people use the term.

PPS *Hurrays for more of Ratatosk's story

[Bu🤠ns]

way too normal here...um my parents were agnostic---although not really outwardly ... they didn't go around telling about how agnostic they were...but at the same time they didn't mind going to church during the church days of the year.  the whole shebang seemed fake to me...  it wasn't until mushrooms that i really started questioning reality...and well i still don't know shit.

[P3nT4gR4m]

it wasn't until mushrooms that i really started questioning reality...

I wonder how many times that sentence has been uttered 

[Honey]

Long Story Short

Raised in a Catholic family.  12 years Catholic school.  Studied the writings of other religions.  Found myself to be basically a Deist?  Studied Psychology & Behavioral Sciences in College.  Decided I needed to understand more about the American Xian Right in order to understand current politics/history/myth/stories.  Went to a religious forum & learned more about this movement.  Became thoroughly nauseated.  Here I am.  Hi!  Bye!

Short Story Long

I was raised in a Catholic family.  My Mother's family, Italian Catholic (matriarchal brand of Catholicism), my Father's family, Irish Catholic (patriarchal style).  Italian/American people usually have a Catholic priest who is a friend of the family.  Someone who baptizes the babies, marries the people, performs the funerals, shows up for family dinners once in a while, etc.  We had one too.  My maternal grandfather (Pop-pops) met him playing ball in Flushing Meadow Park (home of the World's Fair in the 60's) when they were both young men.  The Catholic Priest guy was more theologian than parish priest.  He & I would speak about theology, philosophy, religion, politics, etc.  Most of the people in my family didn't like the Catholic Priest guy but tolerated him.  I think everyone in my family had arguments with him at 1 time or another .  He did get on a roll sometimes & would be pretty obnoxious, especially when drinking. 

I went to Catholic grammar school & high school.  In grammar school I learned about the Roman & Greek Gods & Goddesses in English Literature classes, the Christian God & Jesus in Religion classes, Biology & Chemistry in Science classes, etc.  For me it all seemed to be the same thing, like stories or myths to explain the world.  Sometimes there were teachers who would ignore questions they couldn't answer.  I, in my logical little head (like most children) was trying to make sense out of the World. I learned a lot.  I also learned if you wanted a good grade, you had to "spit" back what they had just told you. I learned how to do that & got good grades. However, honest questions went unanswered. I now understand they didn't have the answers but it would've been nice if they had explained that at the time. It took me a little while to get that one.

Then, right before I entered high school, my parents divorced.  This was probably inevitable.  My parent's marriage was "controversial" at the time (this is America in the late 1950's remember).  An Italian woman marrying an Irish man?  Even though their religions agreed, their cultures were quite different. That changed my family life quite drastically. At that time, I learned more about the Catholic religion. I was the only one in my immediate family who continued to attend mass.  I found that I was welcome although my parents no longer were.  Unless of course they received some kind of (expensive) religious/legalistic document (an annulment it is called) which, in effect, said that their marriage should never have taken place.  Quite puzzling to a teenager. I questioned many things at that time including me own existence.  I stopped going after a while & studied the sacred writings of many other religions.  (My favorite writings were/are from the Tao Te Ching, Tibetan Buddhism, Native American & Bokononism.) 

Growing up in NY, religion & culture are intertwined. Your neighbors are typically from all over the world, sharing cultures, languages, foods, music, art, etc. Religion is mostly a matter of personal choice & largely dependent on the family background. NYers typically socialize in their homes, restaurants, bars, clubs, where hobbies intersect, out in nature, etc. Most Nyers are not in the habit of inviting you to their places of worship.  It is, I guess, in most cases, beside the point.  Having said that, I have been to many different religious ceremonies, that is, on special occasions, like baptisms, marriages, "coming of age rites," funerals, etc.  These rituals include Catholic, Jewish, Sikh, Islamic, Protestant, Hindi, more & marriages between people of sometimes the same & sometimes different faiths. 

When I lived in the South (Nashville, TN) I was invited to visit places of worship on a regular basis.  This was new to me. I wasn't used to it at first.  I went to various different places, mostly Protestant sects I had never heard of.  I lived there for maybe 2 years & then moved back to NY in early 1990's.  I've lived in NY since then except for a pretty short & disastrous move to South FL. 

Sorry about all the long background information but I think it might be necessary to explain that part before getting to this part (it's also like psychotherapy – you can bill me)  Now this is the part where I decide that I need to learn a little more about this Xian fundamental stuff.  After September 11th, & after my disastrous move, & after getting settled back in NY, I find I need to learn more about this political/religious concept & how it relates to the kooky world of the Xian right in US.  I start reading some, getting a little nauseous, looking at that idiotic president, more nauseous, seeing these kooky Xian people, a little more nauseous, etc.

The thing was tho, in my real life, I didn't know any Xian fundy people.  (Wasn't sure I really wanted to either.)  I started going to this religious forum & was exposed to their thought processes.  Yikes!  This part is a long story too & I won't bore you with details but I learned things there that just about floored me.  The obsession with the Bible, the lunacy & seemingly inhumane nature of their God, the apologists, the sophistry, the hypocrisy, the total lack of humor.  & the Atheists that showed up there were hardly a breath of fresh air either.  Well, I did get a tad entangled there.  It did help me to clarify my own thoughts tho.  For example, I had never even heard of some of their notions, for example the whole rapture thing.  (1 of the Atheists on that forum was shocked that I didn't really understand this bizarre belief about the rapture, having had a Catholic upbringing.  But it was not taught & from what I understand, it is a strange American Xian Right fundamentalist thing & not shared by most Xians worldwide.)  That religious forum was truly an eye-opener for me.  I guess I had been very naïve about these things.  I did have some fun there tho when I started to go a little crazy myself in order to cope.  There's an expression, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit."  Along with being "baffled by their bullshit" I probably baffled them at times as well with my particular brand of bullshit too.

& now I'm here.  I guess tho I was always here.  I find (this place) to be very interesting & somehow freeing too.  I really enjoyed reading about how people got here.  Thanks.  Respect.

[Voodoo]

it wasn't until mushrooms that i really started questioning reality...

I wonder how many times that sentence has been uttered 

[LMNO]

Raised by a physicist and a cook.

Dabbled in mysticism as a way of rebelling against my dad, but soon figured out they were all spags.

[Triple Zero]

Raised by a physicist and a cook.

Dabbled in mysticism as a way of rebelling against my dad, but soon figured out they were all spags.

physicists? cooks? kooks? mysticists? rebels? dads? figures?

[LMNO]

Eventually, yes.



But it started out just with mystics.  I figured out that they were all trying to describe the same thing, but falling short, and then codifying their failed attempts in some sort of structure that didn't hold up to scrutiny.  Then they get pissed when you point out the stupid stuff they hold as True.

[Cain]

I went to a Church of England primary school.

However, I didn't really care about it then, and I still don't now.  It was just a thing, you know?  We'd do hymns and go to Church on occasion and that was it.  Big whoop.  It was dull, but hardly terrible.

Apart from that, no personal experience with organized religion.  My parents are not religious and hell, even the school I went to was not religious until a fair few years after I joined.  I just noticed a high correlation between douchebaggery and organized religion.  I also dislike hypocritical moralizing, which most religions are essentially based around.

[A.N. Other]

I was raised being told to choose whatever religion I wanted, as my parents didn't think it was right to force their beliefs onto the children.

As such, I went from each organized religion, trying each one out. I soon found out that each one was basically the same, and it was a moot point to try to argue about the tiny details that made the religions just a little different.

One day, I just said, "Fuck it," became a nihilist for awhile, found that a bore, then found Eris. And that's why I'm the fuckup I am today. And I couldn't be happier.

[Calendula!]

(o hai im new)

I was brought up Mormon, and for a long time I completely believed it. My mom's family had converted when she was about twelve, and my dad (nominally) converted a little while after he married my mom (i.e. they weren't married in the temple, but I think we were all "sealed" there when I was about one).

We were not an "active" family. I think we actually went to church about one week out of every... two to five? It depended on the phase my parents were in-- how exhausted my mom was, given that she often worked two jobs, and how much of a douchebag my dad was being at the time. I think our ward saw us as that half-charity case-- the lost lambs on the bridge of falling off the cliff. The adults I encountered in the church were very nice to me, probably in large part because I was a fairly smart kid and usually tried to follow along in the lessons and ask questions. I quite liked most of the other kids, and had several friends among the other girls who I loved to run around and goof off with.

Most of these friends have since either a) gotten married and started popping out babies, or b) dropped out of the church, dropped out of school, and started popping out babies. The others I've lost contact with; I'm assuming at least some of them escaped.

I was always a pretty gullible kid, and believed wholeheartedly in the church doctrines. After all, my parents, grandparents, and teachers all loved me; they had no reason to lie to me, so obviously they were telling the truth. Since I spent a hefty portion of my time trying to reconcile reason with faith (i.e. "Why do I have a brain like this if my main job is to pop out babies?", or "If it's wrong to like other girls, why haven't I met any Mormon boys I can stand?") I assumed that in their age and experience they'd already put all these questions to rest, and that I'd find out all the answers when I became wise enough and righteous enough. My teachers weren't idiots; my favorite ones were all reasonably well-educated and fairly intelligent, and all of them tried their best to answer my questions.

Unfortunately, a great many of the answers ended in "We don't know, but don't worry-- we'll find out after we die."

It's not a bad philosophy, and I relied on it until I was eighteen. I graduated from early morning high school seminary, and stayed at least halfway "active" my first year in college. My new friends-- none of whom were Church members-- referred to me affectionately as "their Mormon. I went to weekly Institute classes, and at least occasionally hopped into the van on Sundays for the 45-minute drive to the nearest Mormon church. The following summer, I spent a few weeks with my aunt in Salt Lake City.

I guess that was the culmination of my religious education, because immediately after that I lost my faith.

It wasn't any kind of a dramatic event-- nothing like "The Lord has betrayed me and lo I turn my back on him." I was just sitting in the car one day with my mom, waiting in a parking lot for my little brother to finish his piano lesson. It was still summer, and I was watching a tree full of tiny, flittering birds, letting my mind wander. It suddenly, spontaneously occurred to me to wonder what would happen if the church turned out not to be true. In eighteen years, I'd never fully allowed myself to ask that question.

The answer: "If it turns out that the Church is not true, then I will have spent my one shot at human existence being completely miserable, having done nothing I really want to do and a number of things I don't." The second conclusion: "If the Church is true, then God is infiinitely forgiving. [This is one of the most positive tenets of the Mormon faith, I think.] Therefore, if I were to spend my life doing my own thing, then he would understand completely-- being my own, loving father, who knows me better than I know myself-- and forgive me for it before I've even asked him to."

With that safety net in mind, I started questioning my own faith, and came to the disturbing realization that it had been based entirely on a long and thorough process of childhood brainwashing. The most infuriating evidence was in text of the children's hymns I'd always devoured (Singing Time was always my favorite part of the otherwise boring Primary classes):

"I'm so glad when Daddy comes home, glad as I can be..." (I was, in fact, only rarely glad when my father came home.)

The worst one: "Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, Don't go astray, Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, He knows the way."

It struck me as very dishonest-- if it's really true, you shouldn't have to embed shit like this into the minds of impressionable children from the age of two onwards. It should stand for itself. I got more and more angry at the Church leaders, who had suddenly been revealed as a conspiracy of manipulative bastards, and by the end of the evening I was a bitter ex-Mormon agnostic. Have spent the intervening six years in an on-again-off-again dalliance with various (non-Wiccan) forms of paganism (all too serious and ridiculous for me). A couple of weeks ago, I started looking seriously into Discordianism, read parts of the PD and all of the BIP, and realized that this was what I should have been doing all my life. So thanks for being awesome, I guess.   

So that's my ridiculously long and detailed story. And also hello. I bugged a Mormon missionary last night. Was going to post about it, but felt too guilty-- it's such an easy faith to question, I almost felt like I was emotionally abusing a child. Hmm.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Hello Calendula! Welcome! Your story is almost just like that of my friend Pete... so much so that my mental image of you was as a diminutive and adorable but ass-kicking lesbian by your second paragraph, I hope you don't mind!

[Calendula!]

Aww, that's super-sweet, and you're welcome to keep it.  I'd love to be a diminutive and ass-kicking lesbian! Thanks for the welcome. ^_^

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am half Mormon, but my mom escaped so the only parts I was really raised with are connected to family reunions and major holidays, ie. food. Also a neurotic desire to make preserves.

[Requia ☣]

Are the rumors about the horrifying things Mormons do to jello true?