Personality vs. Mental Illness

[Kai]

Yeah, what of it?

::puffs up chest::

Neurology (AKA synapse connections) is malleable.

The hardware/software analogy generally assumes it is not.

[LMNO]

::deflates::

[Lupernikes_shadowbark]

I make a point I always make in these kinds of discussions; if JC or any of the 'Prophets' were around today, they'd have been institutionalised a long time ago......

while some forms of insanity are bona fide social impairments, in other words sufferers cannot interact with other people, others have been incorrectly classed as such....insanity is what society decides it is, just like normality.  I'm not normal and I'm proud of it, to some people I am insane but am I really?

[LMNO]

Yes.

[Lupernikes_shadowbark]

who are you calling insane??

I'll....I'll....I'll...I'll set my friends on you...they know where you live already

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

It seems to me that separating "mental disorder" from "personality" is just a game of semantics. It seems to depend entirely on the subjective definition of 'personality'. If we make the label broad enough, it would encompass everything from genetic predispositions to infant imprinting, conscious changes to self and 'mental illness'. If we define personality as "what should be there, according to our society" then we drop Mental Illness from the group. If we define personality as "how a person acts" then we have a shell game of what root cause made a person perform X action (Are they acting that way because they have Aspergers, because they have an asshole personality or because they just read the PD and are consciously trying to be outlandish (and are they doing that because they're followers, because they're attention whores, because they're trying to break their own 'programming', because they think they've found the Truth and have a tendency to proselytize?)).

So I think we could create a model where personality included things like mental illness and we could create a model where mental illness affected/impacted and screwed with the personality. However, I'm not sure we could consider either model as better, or more/less correct.

[Eve]

I talked to my shrink about this a few months ago, upset that parts of myself that I'd always considered to be very me (highly temperamental, impulsive, etc) were in fact just part of the Bipolar swing. She asked me why it mattered so much that I be able to distinguish something that is essentially indistinguishable. If I've been "moody" for as long as anyone can remember, is it really important to figure out where it came from? It's part of me now, and is, for better or worse, what I consider to be a personality trait.

[LMNO]

It seems that the pragmatic question is, "Can you change a part of your personality at will, if you so desire?"

It appears that a large amout of people considered "with a mental disorder" cannot.

[Lupernikes_shadowbark]

I talked to my shrink about this a few months ago, upset that parts of myself that I'd always considered to be very me (highly temperamental, impulsive, etc) were in fact just part of the Bipolar swing. She asked me why it mattered so much that I be able to distinguish something that is essentially indistinguishable. If I've been "moody" for as long as anyone can remember, is it really important to figure out where it came from? It's part of me now, and is, for better or worse, what I consider to be a personality trait.

While I feel for you completely Eve, this is also a perfect example of what folks have been talking about;

* someone is very particular about things VERY being tidy and in their place -> OCD (one of my exes was like this, pain the ass was what i called it)
* kids who are unruly and disruptive (most of them) at school ->i forget the acronym, maybe someone can help me?
* dim winter weather gets you down - SAD

there are more of these but see what they are doing?? All or most of them end with the word...disorder....The Man is stealing our show!!  Easier to put people in boxes and have this disorder or that one, be 'inferior' and not right.  My question is this, now that the iron rod of religion is becoming more a tinfoil baton is this the next form of control?  Look up Bipolar DISORDER; most of us have been 'sufferers' thereof at SOME point in our lives??  Mood swings, unexplained mood peaks...talking to oneself or folk who ain't there......

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

It seems that the pragmatic question is, "Can you change a part of your personality at will, if you so desire?"

It appears that a large amout of people considered "with a mental disorder" cannot.

A very good point!

[Lupernikes_shadowbark]

yes it is a good point and well made but a number of supposedly 'normal' people can't either

I can add the example of smoking ciggies....I'm a struggling to be non smoker.  I should be able to edit the addictive side of my personality but find it difficult, other people cannot at all.  I have no medically recognised illness, except being an 'acceptable addict'.  For some people the addiction is food, or affection...the list goes on and on.  Some potential disorders (tabacco dependancy disorder....neediness requirement disorder..for example) are accepted and, though not actively, encouraged by society. 

But they are detrimental character traits some cannot change anymore than the insane/mental illness sufferer can.

[Eve]

I talked to my shrink about this a few months ago, upset that parts of myself that I'd always considered to be very me (highly temperamental, impulsive, etc) were in fact just part of the Bipolar swing. She asked me why it mattered so much that I be able to distinguish something that is essentially indistinguishable. If I've been "moody" for as long as anyone can remember, is it really important to figure out where it came from? It's part of me now, and is, for better or worse, what I consider to be a personality trait.

While I feel for you completely Eve, this is also a perfect example of what folks have been talking about;

* someone is very particular about things VERY being tidy and in their place -> OCD (one of my exes was like this, pain the ass was what i called it)
* kids who are unruly and disruptive (most of them) at school ->i forget the acronym, maybe someone can help me?
* dim winter weather gets you down - SAD

there are more of these but see what they are doing?? All or most of them end with the word...disorder....The Man is stealing our show!!  Easier to put people in boxes and have this disorder or that one, be 'inferior' and not right.  My question is this, now that the iron rod of religion is becoming more a tinfoil baton is this the next form of control?  Look up Bipolar DISORDER; most of us have been 'sufferers' thereof at SOME point in our lives??  Mood swings, unexplained mood peaks...talking to oneself or folk who ain't there......

Yes, the "But is it really a disorder?" question is raised and debated constantly. For me, and for many people I know (but certainly not all), it comes down to this: do the afflictions--whatever they may be--impede your ability to function? If they do, then it's a problem. It's a personal decision, which leaves room for a lot of argument and skepticism. *shrug* I don't believe that every person who likes things to be clean and organized has OCD; but when a person can't do something as simple as walking through a door because they feel a particular compulsion that cannot be ignored, then yeah, I'd say that's a disorder.

[LMNO]

Lupe, we aren't talking about physical addictions.

But if you want to, it should be fairly obvious that:
1) an addiction physically changes the brain, putting us in the latter category, and
2) addictions can be broken through force of will, putting us back in the former.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

yes it is a good point and well made but a number of supposedly 'normal' people can't either

I can add the example of smoking ciggies....I'm a struggling to be non smoker.  I should be able to edit the addictive side of my personality but find it difficult, other people cannot at all.  I have no medically recognised illness, except being an 'acceptable addict'.  For some people the addiction is food, or affection...the list goes on and on.  Some potential disorders (tabacco dependancy disorder....neediness requirement disorder..for example) are accepted and, though not actively, encouraged by society. 

But they are detrimental character traits some cannot change anymore than the insane/mental illness sufferer can.

So then perhaps "UInable to change X part of personality" is a correlation with "mental disorders" not necessarily a causation?

Changing one's personality does seem to be difficult for most humans. They have a nature and they follow that nature. Like the animals in some native american legends. Each animal has their Nature and their way of doing things... the exception usually tends to be Coyote or Raven. In other mythologies, the Gods all have their positions except for Loki, who is changing/hiding/disguising, or Prometheus who steals from the Gods, or Hermes who changes his position from dude in a cave to God.

Though I found the trickster class I took to be less than brilliant... I did like this general theme to the trickster archetype as discussed by the author of "Trickster Makes the World". The trickster is the trickster because he can change, he can change himself, he can change the opportunities available to himself, or the opportunities available to others. This in many legends is what made the trickster different than everyone/everything else. All the animals had a nature and a Way of being, except trickster... who never seemed to have his own way, but could change himself to make use of the ways of others.

I often wonder if 'trickster' isn't really a representation of humans as a species... for compared to other species... we seem to be the imitators. It is the way of the diving beetle to catch a bubble of air and breathe from it while under water. It is the human way to learn that trick and invent Scuba gear. It is the way of birds to fly, it is the way of humans to learn the trick and build airplanes.

But, humans as individuals, seem often to have their Way and its the only way they know. Only some humans exhibit the plasticity of personality to change, adapt, and mimic the Way of other people... or the way that's most useful to them at the time.

So maybe many people, mental disorder or not, are unable to change aspects of their personality, because their personality is their way.

Of course, now I'm reminded of the Just So story about "Stickly-Prickly" and "Slow-and-Solid". While neither seemed particularly tricky as part of their nature... in the quest for survival they helped each other change their way.

'Son, son!' said Mother Jaguar ever so many times, graciously waving her tail, 'a Hedgehog is a Hedgehog, and can't be anything but a Hedgehog; and a Tortoise is a Tortoise, and can never be anything else.'

'But it isn't a Hedgehog, and it isn't a Tortoise. It's a little bit of both, and I don't know its proper name.'

'Nonsense!' said Mother Jaguar. 'Everything has its proper name. I should call it "Armadillo" till I found out the real one. And I should leave it alone.'

[Lupernikes_shadowbark]

Think of the tricksters and you'll find you're right;  Monkey, Hannumman, Anansi, Harlequin, Loki...all display human frailties and are always punished, figuratively for them but all display and ridicule the cupidity and foolishness of humans as well as embodying them.