Use brain much

[LMNO]

I think it's called an impasse isn't it?

Not even close.  It's called "monstering".

With apologies to Spider Jerusalem.

[Elder Iptuous]

Okay, so I get a bit spiritual about biology. Its part of who I am. A really interesting book I'm reading right now is Reinventing the Sacred by Stuart Kauffman. Its essential thesis is the movement towards creative nature = God, and uses arguments of biology being emergent and irreducible to physics, as systems that are doings rather than happenings, with individuals that posses teleos (will). It also contains lots of interesting science tidbits with philosophical leanings, and I haven't found anything thus far that would turn me off, no new agishness, no buzzwords.

Maybe thats right up your alley.

I don't know if you will wade through the muck to see this reply, but i wanted to ask if you could expand on what Kauffman is talking about re: 'movement towards creative nature'.  That might be interesting.  that would imply a progress, though, no?
I recently read a book by Douglas Hoffstadter (sp?) (He's the fella that wrote "Godel, Escher, Bach"....one of my favorite authors)  titled "I am a Strange Loop" that explores consciousness in the context of a type of self reference he calls a 'strange loop'.  I think he goes a bit off the deep end in the second half of the book, but one of the concepts that he goes on about is the apparent 'top down causality' that can occur in complex systems with emergence.  I have thought about that and have a vague notion that it could be extrapolated generally to the universe at large, lending some sort of 'intelligence' that I am willing to think of as 'God'.  of course it could be a 'teleos' about as comprehensible to us as ours is to objects the scale of which we haven't drilled deep enough to label, though......

I, too, find the 'mundane' world around us to be spiritually interesting, without resorting to some 'otherness'.....

[Kai]

Okay, so I get a bit spiritual about biology. Its part of who I am. A really interesting book I'm reading right now is Reinventing the Sacred by Stuart Kauffman. Its essential thesis is the movement towards creative nature = God, and uses arguments of biology being emergent and irreducible to physics, as systems that are doings rather than happenings, with individuals that posses teleos (will). It also contains lots of interesting science tidbits with philosophical leanings, and I haven't found anything thus far that would turn me off, no new agishness, no buzzwords.

Maybe thats right up your alley.

I don't know if you will wade through the muck to see this reply, but i wanted to ask if you could expand on what Kauffman is talking about re: 'movement towards creative nature'.  That might be interesting.  that would imply a progress, though, no?
I recently read a book by Douglas Hoffstadter (sp?) (He's the fella that wrote "Godel, Escher, Bach"....one of my favorite authors)  titled "I am a Strange Loop" that explores consciousness in the context of a type of self reference he calls a 'strange loop'.  I think he goes a bit off the deep end in the second half of the book, but one of the concepts that he goes on about is the apparent 'top down causality' that can occur in complex systems with emergence.  I have thought about that and have a vague notion that it could be extrapolated generally to the universe at large, lending some sort of 'intelligence' that I am willing to think of as 'God'.  of course it could be a 'teleos' about as comprehensible to us as ours is to objects the scale of which we haven't drilled deep enough to label, though......

I, too, find the 'mundane' world around us to be spiritually interesting, without resorting to some 'otherness'.....

Yes, I waded through. I've seen this sort of thing time and time again. I find it both sad and highly amusing. I'm actually very near flaming this person, for being ridiculous (i.e. worthy of ridicule), for causing a 3 page thread to skyrocket to 10 pages in a day while I am away at class, and because I just find it fun. My flaming is always good for a laugh.

The progress that he talks about in the book is not biological, but social. His idea is that humans should move away from the traditional concept of god to a more scientific concept as god being the creativity in nature. You CAN mix spirituality and science, you just can't mix religion and science. Spirituality is personal and can be adapted to something as ever changing as science, while religion is very hard to change, very static.

I was reading last night about Kauffman's autonomic molecular idea. He believes that the least derived form of life that would be posessing of teleos, will, would be an autonomic molecular system that does work against a equilibrium gradient. He also talks quite a bit about abiogenesis in the process. Its all in all a very very interesting book, and I'm actually /learning/ about science while reading. Everything that humans write will be biased, but at least this book has a bias that I can comprehend and stand.

When I wrote the Process of Sustaining 2 years ago, I was trying to form a spiritual basis in a life that was dominated by scientific reasoning. Using biological principles of ecology, I formulated a personal ethic that feels trancendent yet keeps me grounded. Kauffman is trying to do the same with this book, and I respect and admire that.

[East Coast Hustle]

Lupernikus is some sort of bizarre synthesis of Wolfpoet and Eldora.

he is also either the dumbest or the most willfully ignorant person I've seen on here in a long time, including Lamanite and CowAss.

also, further proof that anyone with a username relating in any way to wolves is almost certainly a dipshit.

also also, I bet he wears sweatpants in public.

[Kai]

Lupernikus is some sort of bizarre synthesis of Wolfpoet and Eldora.

he is also either the dumbest or the most willfully ignorant person I've seen on here in a long time, including Lamanite and CowAss.

also, further proof that anyone with a username relating in any way to wolves is almost certainly a dipshit.

also also, I bet he wears sweatpants in public.

I was just gonna ignore him, but...think maybe I should flame instead? I mean, I want to continue this convo with Ip, but can do that elsewhere.

Kai,

Always has room for a Scientastic Takedown.

[Elder Iptuous]

With a rcommendation like that, i'll definitely have to check it out.
Is the work you mentioned writing what i found when searching written by buddhist_monk_wannabe?
Oh, btw, i just noticed that the current issue of SciAm has an article about genetic switches in it.  I'll have to read that tonight.

[Kai]

With a rcommendation like that, i'll definitely have to check it out.
Is the work you mentioned writing what i found when searching written by buddhist_monk_wannabe?
Oh, btw, i just noticed that the current issue of SciAm has an article about genetic switches in it.  I'll have to read that tonight.

This: http://pseudobuddhaodiscordopastafarian.blogspot.com/2006/11/process-of-sustaining-in-universe-all.html

[Lupernikes_shadowbark]

Lupernikus is some sort of bizarre synthesis of Wolfpoet and Eldora.

he is also either the dumbest or the most willfully ignorant person I've seen on here in a long time, including Lamanite and CowAss.

also, further proof that anyone with a username relating in any way to wolves is almost certainly a dipshit.

also also, I bet he wears sweatpants in public.

My username is a joke but thank you for comparing me to strangers.  You can check around and find I was very polite and reasonable until people started to get personal and childish; I thought this site was going to avoid all of that rubbish; it would seem that i am wrong.....some folk appear to enjoy making fun of complete strangers they'll never meet wherever you go...shame really

If by willfully ignorant you mean "disagrees with me" then yes I indeed am and proud of it.  Perhaps one day you'll grow up and realise your opinion is not what Western Civilisation is built upon.

I don't wear sweat pants period.  In case you wish to draw any further poorly judged ideas about m, let me clear it up before I say ba-bye to this place (one day of this is enough, came here for a laugh, not an ego brawl);  I am a National Cross Country Mountain Biking Champion and therefore not fat.  I am a published author and therefore not in need of affirmation or respect.  I am happily married and therefore not needy or of questionable sexuality. Just because I avoid mathematically based sciences, i am no fool and never will be but thanks for the mature comments, i shall treasure them always.  I came on here for a bit of fun, a bit of research and irreverant chat.  I met with supersized egos and the usual pack mentality one finds on these kinds of webpages, why do I bother.  Neophobes the lot of you (not all, sorry some of the people I've met have been rather cool).  Oh and no, not published as in on a wee webpage or stapled periodical either.


anyway, I've had enough so have fun and I shan't be back here again.
Ciao

[Kai]

I'm sorry, you can't be afraid of the "new" if you've already seen it a thousand times.

[Cain]

I'm sorry we don't think exactly the same way you do.

[East Coast Hustle]

hey, his opinions are completely valid just because they're his opinions!

you be nice!

[Golden Applesauce]

Lupernikus is some sort of bizarre synthesis of Wolfpoet and Eldora.

he is also either the dumbest or the most willfully ignorant person I've seen on here in a long time, including Lamanite and CowAss.

also, further proof that anyone with a username relating in any way to wolves is almost certainly a dipshit.

also also, I bet he wears sweatpants in public.

My username is a joke but thank you for comparing me to strangers.  You can check around and find I was very polite and reasonable until people started to get personal and childish; I thought this site was going to avoid all of that rubbish; it would seem that i am wrong.....some folk appear to enjoy making fun of complete strangers they'll never meet wherever you go...shame really

If by willfully ignorant you mean "disagrees with me" then yes I indeed am and proud of it.  Perhaps one day you'll grow up and realise your opinion is not what Western Civilisation is built upon.

I don't wear sweat pants period.  In case you wish to draw any further poorly judged ideas about m, let me clear it up before I say ba-bye to this place (one day of this is enough, came here for a laugh, not an ego brawl);  I am a National Cross Country Mountain Biking Champion and therefore not fat.  I am a published author and therefore not in need of affirmation or respect.  I am happily married and therefore not needy or of questionable sexuality. Just because I avoid mathematically based sciences, i am no fool and never will be but thanks for the mature comments, i shall treasure them always.  I came on here for a bit of fun, a bit of research and irreverant chat.  I met with supersized egos and the usual pack mentality one finds on these kinds of webpages, why do I bother.  Neophobes the lot of you (not all, sorry some of the people I've met have been rather cool).  Oh and no, not published as in on a wee webpage or stapled periodical either.


anyway, I've had enough so have fun and I shan't be back here again.
Ciao

Honest question - what'd you write?

[Payne]

Lupernikus is some sort of bizarre synthesis of Wolfpoet and Eldora.

he is also either the dumbest or the most willfully ignorant person I've seen on here in a long time, including Lamanite and CowAss.

also, further proof that anyone with a username relating in any way to wolves is almost certainly a dipshit.

also also, I bet he wears sweatpants in public.

My username is a joke but thank you for comparing me to strangers.  You can check around and find I was very polite and reasonable until people started to get personal and childish; I thought this site was going to avoid all of that rubbish; it would seem that i am wrong.....some folk appear to enjoy making fun of complete strangers they'll never meet wherever you go...shame really

Bull. Shit.

You were being far from polite and reasonable, and I never got personal and childish with you. Neither did LMNO, afaics. This site is filled with hairless apes, we often act like it.

Making fun of strangers? Not really, making fun of their patently ridiculous and poorly thought out "opinions"  more like.

If by willfully ignorant you mean "disagrees with me" then yes I indeed am and proud of it.  Perhaps one day you'll grow up and realise your opinion is not what Western Civilisation is built upon.

Science and the scientific method ARE what a great deal of western civilisation is built on. Is this another of your poorly judged and researched comments again? Hey, weren't you railing against the prevelance of this type of thought earlier in one of these threads?

I don't wear sweat pants period.  In case you wish to draw any further poorly judged ideas about m, let me clear it up before I say ba-bye to this place (one day of this is enough, came here for a laugh, not an ego brawl);  I am a National Cross Country Mountain Biking Champion and therefore not fat.  I am a published author and therefore not in need of affirmation or respect.  I am happily married and therefore not needy or of questionable sexuality. Just because I avoid mathematically based sciences, i am no fool and never will be but thanks for the mature comments, i shall treasure them always.  I came on here for a bit of fun, a bit of research and irreverant chat.  I met with supersized egos and the usual pack mentality one finds on these kinds of webpages, why do I bother.  Neophobes the lot of you (not all, sorry some of the people I've met have been rather cool).  Oh and no, not published as in on a wee webpage or stapled periodical either.


anyway, I've had enough so have fun and I shan't be back here again.
Ciao

I don't care who you are IRL, or what you've done. I tried to point you in the right direction several times, but you ignored it.

I don't really think we'll miss you, or be anything but amused by your flounciness,

[Lilith]

Mmmh, this thread had so much great stuff, it's a pity that there are mud holes everywhere.
maybe you should have eplained it to him in an easy way, I'll try, I can't write complicate English, cause it's not my native language:
@Lupi:
You said only humans evolved (oh, I can't even write this without getting goosebumps!): what makes you think so?
Have you been outside recently?
Apes are not very far from humans, in fact, they have self awarness, sense of humor, are able to play 'pretend' and Bonobos even have sex for fun and many birds recognize themselves in mirrors. just because they don't like sitting on a desk in a city office cube all day doesn't mean they didn't "evolve".
For my opinion, humans are no superior being in any way, they can't run fast, can't fight very good and have hardly any insulation left. We are pretty professionalized in cognitive thinking and are able to write our knowledge down for future generations, that's true, but that's all (or would you be able to invent the car new from scratch?).
And, as mentioned, it happended a lot the last thousand years: lactose tolerance in some areas (as mentioned), less ability to digest raw food, esp. meat, and our jaw went smaller, too: no room for wisdom teeth anymore... I'm sure there's more, esp. on molecular bases.
changes also depend on how fast the generation-change of a spezies is.
The only parts, where changes are faster and more obvious in long living animals, is usually when humans stick their fingers in (as to say breeding). But breeding is not adapting, those animals are less suitable for nature.
For me it's pretty obvious, that nothing on this planet is 'processing' towards a goal. Why? You never know how the environment will change (or how we will make it change)! There's nothing planned, it's adaption.

I have a question and hope I don't sound stupid, I don't have a professional insight into this and didn't read much books:
Are you able to lose information forever?
In bred animals, most professionals (sheep with ever growing hair, pigs with hardly any fat, hens who lay eggs, even when not fertilized...) are not able to survive in nature anymore. But we have seen, that some survive and adapt perfectly into niches again (Dingos, horses... and even regular house pigs managed to survive outside in winter). What would you call this re-adaption in a very short time (took less time than the breeding)?

[Lupernikes_shadowbark]

Lupernikus is some sort of bizarre synthesis of Wolfpoet and Eldora.

he is also either the dumbest or the most willfully ignorant person I've seen on here in a long time, including Lamanite and CowAss.

also, further proof that anyone with a username relating in any way to wolves is almost certainly a dipshit.

also also, I bet he wears sweatpants in public.

My username is a joke but thank you for comparing me to strangers.  You can check around and find I was very polite and reasonable until people started to get personal and childish; I thought this site was going to avoid all of that rubbish; it would seem that i am wrong.....some folk appear to enjoy making fun of complete strangers they'll never meet wherever you go...shame really

Bull. Shit.

You were being far from polite and reasonable, and I never got personal and childish with you. Neither did LMNO, afaics. This site is filled with hairless apes, we often act like it.

Making fun of strangers? Not really, making fun of their patently ridiculous and poorly thought out "opinions"  more like.

If by willfully ignorant you mean "disagrees with me" then yes I indeed am and proud of it.  Perhaps one day you'll grow up and realise your opinion is not what Western Civilisation is built upon.

Not you mate, you weren't rude but look at people spoiling for a fight who immediately were rude and insulting.  I responded to them, perhaps I should have kept it out of the forum and for that I apologise.  However, instead of just trashing my ideas, why not fill the gaps in my knowledge and calmly and pleasantly explained their viewpoint I'd have read and listened.  "Oi you're thick and therefore a wanker" does little to endear however.  I did say that I didn't include you in my less friendly comments though. 

Simply I am bored though, I had hoped people would explain their views to me nicely before lilith did (which i appreciate by the way) but they chose not to.  I do apologise to anyone who was offended but I'd already been wound up by apes by then
Science and the scientific method ARE what a great deal of western civilisation is built on. Is this another of your poorly judged and researched comments again? Hey, weren't you railing against the prevelance of this type of thought earlier in one of these threads?

I don't wear sweat pants period.  In case you wish to draw any further poorly judged ideas about m, let me clear it up before I say ba-bye to this place (one day of this is enough, came here for a laugh, not an ego brawl);  I am a National Cross Country Mountain Biking Champion and therefore not fat.  I am a published author and therefore not in need of affirmation or respect.  I am happily married and therefore not needy or of questionable sexuality. Just because I avoid mathematically based sciences, i am no fool and never will be but thanks for the mature comments, i shall treasure them always.  I came on here for a bit of fun, a bit of research and irreverant chat.  I met with supersized egos and the usual pack mentality one finds on these kinds of webpages, why do I bother.  Neophobes the lot of you (not all, sorry some of the people I've met have been rather cool).  Oh and no, not published as in on a wee webpage or stapled periodical either.


anyway, I've had enough so have fun and I shan't be back here again.
Ciao

I don't care who you are IRL, or what you've done. I tried to point you in the right direction several times, but you ignored it.

I don't really think we'll miss you, or be anything but amused by your flounciness,