What do you REALLY believe?

[Cain]

Is there any particular reason for you being a prick today Rata?  Did Cram say something in order for you to be a continual asswipe on his thread?

[LMNO]

How about, "What ever is most useful to me at the moment?"

Or does that fall into the Agnostic category?

[Elder Iptuous]

I want to advise people to steer away from the "other" option if another item on the list is CLOSEST to your beliefs. ...But come on, these boxes are pretty wide.

I haven't clicked a box yet.
still wondering where you would put pantheism.
I don't think that's a fine distinction of one of the other categories.  seems to not fit your list, except the 'other'...

[Payne]

[15:00] <&Payne> Life: Hilarious but unusable
[15:04] <@Cram> Okay so I want to start a poll
[15:04] <@Cram> which asks people what their OMG REAL beliefs are---
[15:04] <&Payne> oh dear
[15:04] <@Cram> here are the options so far - and I'm looking for input to cover all the bases
[15:04] <&Payne> I have a bad feeling about this
[15:04] <@Cram> I worship some variation of the Christian / Jewish / Muslim God
[15:05] <@Cram> Agnostic -  I couldn't possibly know
[15:05] <@Cram> Atheist - no gods
[15:05] <@Cram> I Worship Eris specifically
[15:05] <@Cram> Eris is one Goddess in the pantheon I follow
[15:05] <@Cram> Prefer not to define myself
[15:05] <@Cram> END LIST
[15:05] <&Payne> hmmmm
[15:05] <@Cram> Am I missing anything?
[15:05] <&Payne> Abrahamic for the first one
[15:05] <@Cram> This is fodder for a rant I'm brewing about the beliefs of "irreligious" people (CoG, pastafarians, discordians, subgenii, etc)
[15:06] <&Payne> Hinduism/Buddhism/ other eastern religion
[15:06] <@Cram> ooh good spot
[15:06] <&Payne> also, gods/goddesses as symbols rather than as full blown deities
[15:06] <@Cram> Wouldn't that be agnostic?
[15:07] <&Payne> for example, some people hold to what Eris represents instead of Eris as a goddess
[15:07] <&Payne> well, I dunno, depends on which interpretation of agnostic you go for
[15:08] <@Cram> fair enough
[15:08] <&Payne> whether you go for "watered down atheist" or "couldn't really give a fuck if the gods are real or not"
[15:08] <&Payne> and myriad other ways to interpret it
[15:08] <@Cram> hahahah
[15:08] <&Payne> got to love semantics
[15:09] <&Payne> I guess what I mean is where and how your belief is manifested, and whether or not it is religious in nature
[15:10] <&Payne> regarding Eris as an archetype for "WOoowoowoOWOoWo [scary ghost noises] weird shit going down" isn't really agnosticism in my view
[15:11] <@Cram> lol
[15:12] <&Payne> so, to boil it down as a poll option, "I acknowledge what Eris represents, but do not worship her in any way"
[15:12] <&Payne> something like that
[15:15] <@Cram> hm, well the question is about what you actually believe - so the relevant part of that answer is "I don't worship anybody"
[15:15] <&Payne> belief |= worship
[15:15] <@Cram> mm, good point
[15:17] <@Cram> This is tough!
[15:17] <&Payne> yes, but a good discussion, I feel
[15:17] <@Cram> Because I have a very hard time conceputalizing / articulating my beliefs - so I don't think I fit anywhere on that list
[15:17] <&Payne> so it should be worth it
[15:17] <&Payne> thing with belief is usually it falls outside boxes
[15:19] <@Cram> I'm wondering if my premise is bunk --
[15:19] <@Cram> because I'm thinking about it now, and asking about RELIGION might be kind of off-base, because a lot of people are attracted to Discordia for non-religious reasons
[15:19] <@Cram> like for me, it's mostly an /excuse/ :-P
[15:20] <&Payne> seems a lot of people who have un-found religion are people who congregate at PD
[15:20] <&Payne> Ratatosk, for example, dropped the JW-ism, and is now a no-good hippie
[15:20] <@Cram> lol
[15:21] <&Payne> maybe it's not so much belief as a whole, but evolution of ones beliefs that is interesting here?
[15:21] <@Cram> yeah
[15:21] <@Cram> good point
[15:23] <&Payne> zomg, I just realised I'm having a srs discussion again!
[15:23] <&Payne> :O
[15:23] <@Cram> hahahah
[15:24] <@Cram> Alright, what would the options be for THAT poll?
[15:24] <&Payne> hmmm
[15:24] <&Payne> tricky
[15:24] <@Cram> "How did you arrive at your current beliefs (or lack thereof)?"
[15:25] <@Cram> --raised religious, now am ______?
[15:25] <@Cram> Eh, I have a feeling a question like that can't be covered in a simple poll
[15:25] <&Payne> well, not in one poll, certainly
[15:26] <&Payne> you'd need to have one that explored peoples previous belief or faith structure, and what form that took, and a secondary one that explored their current belief or faith structure and what form that takes
[15:27] <&Payne> then some kind of post about "how you feel this evolution has taken place"
[15:29] <&Payne> it could be a gradual awakening, a sudden awakening (personal apocalypse), a bastardisation of previous views, a removal of all faith and belief in something "greater" - replaced with a more secular and cynical-humanist view
[15:29] <&Payne> I dunno
[15:30] <@Cram> That's a really good dissection
[15:31] <&Payne> belief is generally an organic type of thing and is hard to define because it slips into the cracks and and gaps left between our false compartmentalisation of personality, the "logical" boxes we try to split ourselves and others up in to
[15:34] <&Payne>  heh, I'm getting onto shrapnel again
[15:34] <&Payne> STOP ME IF YOU CAN
[15:40] <&Payne> I may have to do a write up based on this discussion as well, you know
[15:40] <&Payne> we can vie for honour on the battlefield of our rants!
[15:40] <&Payne> HAVE AT YOU!
[15:43] <@Cram> LOL

..........................

[15:47] <&Payne> trust PD to get wound up about which boxes you offer them
[15:47] <&Payne> it's a simple enough question, with  big enough boxes that one of them will largely offer them a good compromise
[15:48] <&Payne> trust Ratatosk to lead the charge in not being offered the exact box he wanted
[15:48] <@Cram> lol
[15:49] <&Payne> should maybe post this IRC discussion
[15:49] <&Payne> as it is relevent

[Cramulus]

I want to advise people to steer away from the "other" option if another item on the list is CLOSEST to your beliefs. ...But come on, these boxes are pretty wide.

I haven't clicked a box yet.
still wondering where you would put pantheism.
I don't think that's a fine distinction of one of the other categories.  seems to not fit your list, except the 'other'...

Given the options, I think pantheism is a pretty good candidate for "other".

[Cain]

Oh, another "sociological experiment."

[Cramulus]

 

when we've got some data, I'll post links to the threads I've started at other irreligious forums. I think you'll find it interesting.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I didn't mean to be an asshole... just after lots and lots of debate over the years, I don't think that my ideas fit with either of the 'a' options. I didn't intend to be an asshole and I'm sorry if it came across that way.

[East Coast Hustle]

I think pantheism is covered by "I worship Eris among many other gods", even if you don't actually worship Eris.

also, Rat, you weren't being an asshole, just a dink. Surely you can figure out which of those works best in a general sense for the purposes of helping your fellow man and his silly research project which has already been either a horrible success or a wonderful failure.

[Cain]

I didn't mean to be an asshole... just after lots and lots of debate over the years, I don't think that my ideas fit with either of the 'a' options. I didn't intend to be an asshole and I'm sorry if it came across that way.

We're all intelligent people here, we all know roughly what we believe and what the choices we were given mean.  We also have the space to give exposition below, should we feel it necessary.  Your passive-aggressive whining over not having a Special Hugbox Designed Just For You (Because You're A Unique And Wondeful Snowflake) is boring.  If you're going to be a dick simply because, at least be honest about it.

For example, I am a dickweed.  You're talking to a dickweed. Does a cobbler not make shoes? Does a horse-trainer not train horses?

This weed in my dick; I like this weed. Why do I eat of it? Because it is my dick, and because it is bitter.

But I at least have the self-control not to let it show because a poll on the internet did not express my Special Uniquness perfectly.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I didn't mean to be an asshole... just after lots and lots of debate over the years, I don't think that my ideas fit with either of the 'a' options. I didn't intend to be an asshole and I'm sorry if it came across that way.

We're all intelligent people here, we all know roughly what we believe and what the choices we were given mean.  We also have the space to give exposition below, should we feel it necessary.  Your passive-aggressive whining over not having a Special Hugbox Designed Just For You (Because You're A Unique And Wondeful Snowflake) is boring.  If you're going to be a dick simply because, at least be honest about it.

For example, I am a dickweed.  You're talking to a dickweed. Does a cobbler not make shoes? Does a horse-trainer not train horses?

This weed in my dick; I like this weed. Why do I eat of it? Because it is my dick, and because it is bitter.

But I at least have the self-control not to let it show because a poll on the internet did not express my Special Uniquness perfectly.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that when Cram said "If I'm missing poll options, let me know." he meant "If you offer any other options, you're a dick". If I'd ranted about it for multiple posts about how wrong it was or how evil or how stupid cram was... then I'd see your point. As it is, I disagree that I was being a dick. As soon as Cram said "I don't want to get that granular", I added my vote to the poll. Should I just smile and nod from now on, rather than actually say anything?

[Cain]

I didn't mean to be an asshole... just after lots and lots of debate over the years, I don't think that my ideas fit with either of the 'a' options. I didn't intend to be an asshole and I'm sorry if it came across that way.

We're all intelligent people here, we all know roughly what we believe and what the choices we were given mean.  We also have the space to give exposition below, should we feel it necessary.  Your passive-aggressive whining over not having a Special Hugbox Designed Just For You (Because You're A Unique And Wondeful Snowflake) is boring.  If you're going to be a dick simply because, at least be honest about it.

For example, I am a dickweed.  You're talking to a dickweed. Does a cobbler not make shoes? Does a horse-trainer not train horses?

This weed in my dick; I like this weed. Why do I eat of it? Because it is my dick, and because it is bitter.

But I at least have the self-control not to let it show because a poll on the internet did not express my Special Uniquness perfectly.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that when Cram said "If I'm missing poll options, let me know." he meant "If you offer any other options, you're a dick". If I'd ranted about it for multiple posts about how wrong it was or how evil or how stupid cram was... then I'd see your point. As it is, I disagree that I was being a dick. As soon as Cram said "I don't want to get that granular", I added my vote to the poll. Should I just smile and nod from now on, rather than actually say anything?

Oh, you weren't arguing in bad faith and just for the sake of it?

Makes a first.

[Eve]

I don't really believe in anything, but since I'm not positive that god(s) doesn't exist, I generally call myself agnostic. Or, since I'm dragged to church on Christmas Eve and Easter, a non-practicing Catholic; however, that tends to imply that I agree with Catholic views and values, which is incorrect. I guess I don't know what I believe. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I didn't mean to be an asshole... just after lots and lots of debate over the years, I don't think that my ideas fit with either of the 'a' options. I didn't intend to be an asshole and I'm sorry if it came across that way.

We're all intelligent people here, we all know roughly what we believe and what the choices we were given mean.  We also have the space to give exposition below, should we feel it necessary.  Your passive-aggressive whining over not having a Special Hugbox Designed Just For You (Because You're A Unique And Wondeful Snowflake) is boring.  If you're going to be a dick simply because, at least be honest about it.

For example, I am a dickweed.  You're talking to a dickweed. Does a cobbler not make shoes? Does a horse-trainer not train horses?

This weed in my dick; I like this weed. Why do I eat of it? Because it is my dick, and because it is bitter.

But I at least have the self-control not to let it show because a poll on the internet did not express my Special Uniquness perfectly.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that when Cram said "If I'm missing poll options, let me know." he meant "If you offer any other options, you're a dick". If I'd ranted about it for multiple posts about how wrong it was or how evil or how stupid cram was... then I'd see your point. As it is, I disagree that I was being a dick. As soon as Cram said "I don't want to get that granular", I added my vote to the poll. Should I just smile and nod from now on, rather than actually say anything?

Oh, you weren't arguing in bad faith and just for the sake of it?

Makes a first.

No, I was not arguing in bad faith, just for the sake of it. I personally think there's a fundamental difference between atheism, agnosticism and model agnosticism. To wit, Agnostics and Atheists make observations about their view of the question of God. Model Agnosticism makes observations about views on concepts of belief...

More like a metasystem than a system... does that make sense?

[Cramulus]

Basically, I've been thinking about the growing category of "irreligious" people. More "joke" religions (like the Church of Google, or Tarvu-ism) are showing up every day. To some extent, they're silly jokes. But many of them have, at their core, people who buy into that (perhaps satirical) worldview.

I would distinguish these people's beliefs from actual religious beliefs - I'm using that word "irreligious", because it's tongue in cheek, but it represents a serious point. For example, the FSM spags are all about the creation/evolution debate - few of them actually believe in the flying spaghetti monster, but they use that framework to explain the point they're trying to make. If you asked them to fill out a religious survey, what box would they check? That's what I'm exploring, and here's why:


These data will help us investigate whether the word "irreligious" is actually a good umbrella term for these things*, or if most Discordians/Pastafarians/Googlites are just atheists and agnostics in disguise.





_{*read: "You people"}