What do you REALLY believe?

[Cainad (dec.)]

Take a wild guess. No, really.

[BabylonHoruv]

Take a wild guess. No, really.

Because it irritates Roger?  I'm not playing dumb, maybe I really am being dumb, but I don't get the assumption that magic, fairies, etc are a bad thing as far as getting serious work accomplished goes.

[Thurnez Isa]

Listen if I come over to your house and butcher you with a knife... your still dead whether or not you believe in the knife, or ability to butcher you... end of story
The universe is governed by specific principles and whether you want to believe in them or not doesn't have any effect on the validity of these principles... and unless you could come up with an experiment to prove that wrong...
get over it...

[Cainad (dec.)]

RE: Cram

I would say that science is the basis of consensus reality in our modern society, casting it aside entirely would be as foolish as completely casting aside Catholicism in the middle ages.  dismissing it is never going to be easy, and shouldn't be done regularly, but it can still be very useful, on occasion.  Plus a date with Isis would be awesome.

Wait...

So if I clobber you with a barstool after you've immanentized the eschaton and gotten rid of science as a dominant creator of consensus reality, the force with which it hits you won't equal the mass of the barstool times the acceleration with which I propel it towards your face?

Nope, it'll be equal to the totality of the chi which you have invested into barstool, multiplied by the wooden essence of the barstool itself.

Plus Enki and the guy with the squid vatar said what I meant better than I did.

You changed the terms so that they sound more mahdjiqual. Whoop-dee fuckin' doo. All you accomplished was to make it unquantifiable, unless you want to invent a new metric for measuring chi and wooden essence.

[BabylonHoruv]

Listen if I come over to your house and butcher you with a knife... your still dead whether or not you believe in the knife, or ability to butcher you... end of story
The universe is governed by specific principles and whether you want to believe in them or not doesn't have any effect on the validity of these principles... and unless you could come up with an experiment to prove that wrong...
get over it...

Same arguement as the barstool.  Application of material force doesn't mean that my beliefs are wrong, or that yours are right.  Not that mine are right and your are wrong either, just that mine are more useful to me at the moment than any other set I could be using.  I didn't say that I don't believe that a knife thrust to the sternum will kill me, or that a barstool to the head will hurt and probably cause a concussion.  However neither of those experiements says anything about the underlying nature of the universe.  All they say is get out of the way of barstools and knives.

Also I have an experiment for you.  Problem is, it being magic, it rather requires belief in magic.

Pick two results which are equally likely, but unrelated, both of which are things which will or will not be realized in one months time.  Preferably two things that you do not have any control over, as that adds a whole shit ton of extra variables, also, preferably things which have a frequency of occurence between 2/3 and 3/4 of happening purely by chance.

Now, using whatever magical system you believe to be valid, work for one of those results to happen, don't work for the other.

Do this repeatedly over and over, so that you have a representative sample, now see if the one that you worked toward making happen happened more often.

I have not done this, it is a crapload of work to convince me of something that I have already accepted, IE magic works, but if you are interested in approaching it in a way that will get it into your head go ahead and try it.

To apply this specifically to gods, rather than doing a spell, pray for one result or another.  give sacrifice, in whatever way that deity likes.  This I have done often enough that I can say with some reliability that things are more likely to happen if I pray for them than not.  

[BabylonHoruv]

RE: Cram

I would say that science is the basis of consensus reality in our modern society, casting it aside entirely would be as foolish as completely casting aside Catholicism in the middle ages.  dismissing it is never going to be easy, and shouldn't be done regularly, but it can still be very useful, on occasion.  Plus a date with Isis would be awesome.

Wait...

So if I clobber you with a barstool after you've immanentized the eschaton and gotten rid of science as a dominant creator of consensus reality, the force with which it hits you won't equal the mass of the barstool times the acceleration with which I propel it towards your face?

Nope, it'll be equal to the totality of the chi which you have invested into barstool, multiplied by the wooden essence of the barstool itself.

Plus Enki and the guy with the squid vatar said what I meant better than I did.

You changed the terms so that they sound more mahdjiqual. Whoop-dee fuckin' doo. All you accomplished was to make it unquantifiable, unless you want to invent a new metric for measuring chi and wooden essence.

F=MA doesn't matter at all at that point.  nor does the chi and wooden essence.  what matters to me is how much my face hurts, which can't really be quantified in any objective way, and whether or not i have sustained any permanent injuries.  All of this is pretty subjective and an approach based on my own beliefs is probably more useful to me at that point.  You can't really prove, one way or another, what the force of the barstool is, as setting up measuring equipment for it would alter the dynamics, and make me much less likely to stand there and get hit.  Also, if you approach it scientifically, making certain you are applying the right amount of acceleration, figuring the mass of the barstool, and thus achieving the proper force to break my nose, give me a concussion, or whatever, you are less likely to achieve a useful result (me broken, concussed, or what have you) than if you utter an invocation to the mighty Thor and swing with all your might.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Listen if I come over to your house and butcher you with a knife... your still dead whether or not you believe in the knife, or ability to butcher you... end of story
The universe is governed by specific principles and whether you want to believe in them or not doesn't have any effect on the validity of these principles... and unless you could come up with an experiment to prove that wrong...
get over it...

Same arguement as the barstool.  Application of material force doesn't mean that my beliefs are wrong, or that yours are right.  Not that mine are right and your are wrong either, just that mine are more useful to me at the moment than any other set I could be using.  I didn't say that I don't believe that a knife thrust to the sternum will kill me, or that a barstool to the head will hurt and probably cause a concussion.  However neither of those experiements says anything about the underlying nature of the universe.  All they say is get out of the way of barstools and knives.

No. But it does mean yours are stupid, if you value life and good health while disbelieving in the power of physical trauma.

[Thurnez Isa]

Know what
Im getting fucking sick of people that bad mouth science so they can fantasize about magique and fairies and other bull shit
They are worse the creationists.
At least many of the creationists actually probably wouldn't mind going back to the dark ages if it means being closer to their bronze age super man
But these fuckers are worse then that. They actually use the comforts and technology that scientific knowledge has bestowed on them whenever it is in their convince, or when their magique pixie dust can not help them.

Hey you wanna live without science. Fine. Never go see a doctor or dentist again, toss out all your technology, especially digital media, burn all your books that doesn't have to do with dragons and elves, and go sit in the corner and play make believe.

Us grown ups will have discussions without you.

Moonbeam

[Thurnez Isa]

Listen if I come over to your house and butcher you with a knife... your still dead whether or not you believe in the knife, or ability to butcher you... end of story
The universe is governed by specific principles and whether you want to believe in them or not doesn't have any effect on the validity of these principles... and unless you could come up with an experiment to prove that wrong...
get over it...

Same arguement as the barstool.  Application of material force doesn't mean that my beliefs are wrong, or that yours are right.  Not that mine are right and your are wrong either, just that mine are more useful to me at the moment than any other set I could be using.  I didn't say that I don't believe that a knife thrust to the sternum will kill me, or that a barstool to the head will hurt and probably cause a concussion.  However neither of those experiements says anything about the underlying nature of the universe.  All they say is get out of the way of barstools and knives.

Also I have an experiment for you.  Problem is, it being magic, it rather requires belief in magic.

Pick two results which are equally likely, but unrelated, both of which are things which will or will not be realized in one months time.  Preferably two things that you do not have any control over, as that adds a whole shit ton of extra variables, also, preferably things which have a frequency of occurence between 2/3 and 3/4 of happening purely by chance.

Now, using whatever magical system you believe to be valid, work for one of those results to happen, don't work for the other.

Do this repeatedly over and over, so that you have a representative sample, now see if the one that you worked toward making happen happened more often.

I have not done this, it is a crapload of work to convince me of something that I have already accepted, IE magic works, but if you are interested in approaching it in a way that will get it into your head go ahead and try it.

To apply this specifically to gods, rather than doing a spell, pray for one result or another.  give sacrifice, in whatever way that deity likes.  This I have done often enough that I can say with some reliability that things are more likely to happen if I pray for them than not.  

Get results and get it published in a scientific paper... and peer reviewed...
cause if that is true then physics is wrong and you will a Nobel prize... and  lot of monies

[Cainad (dec.)]

Take a wild guess. No, really.

Because it irritates Roger?  I'm not playing dumb, maybe I really am being dumb, but I don't get the assumption that magic, fairies, etc are a bad thing as far as getting serious work accomplished goes.

Keep trying.

RE: Cram

I would say that science is the basis of consensus reality in our modern society, casting it aside entirely would be as foolish as completely casting aside Catholicism in the middle ages.  dismissing it is never going to be easy, and shouldn't be done regularly, but it can still be very useful, on occasion.  Plus a date with Isis would be awesome.

Wait...

So if I clobber you with a barstool after you've immanentized the eschaton and gotten rid of science as a dominant creator of consensus reality, the force with which it hits you won't equal the mass of the barstool times the acceleration with which I propel it towards your face?

Nope, it'll be equal to the totality of the chi which you have invested into barstool, multiplied by the wooden essence of the barstool itself.

Plus Enki and the guy with the squid vatar said what I meant better than I did.

You changed the terms so that they sound more mahdjiqual. Whoop-dee fuckin' doo. All you accomplished was to make it unquantifiable, unless you want to invent a new metric for measuring chi and wooden essence.

F=MA doesn't matter at all at that point.  nor does the chi and wooden essence.  what matters to me is how much my face hurts, which can't really be quantified in any objective way, and whether or not i have sustained any permanent injuries.  All of this is pretty subjective and an approach based on my own beliefs is probably more useful to me at that point.  You can't really prove, one way or another, what the force of the barstool is, as setting up measuring equipment for it would alter the dynamics, and make me much less likely to stand there and get hit.  Also, if you approach it scientifically, making certain you are applying the right amount of acceleration, figuring the mass of the barstool, and thus achieving the proper force to break my nose, give me a concussion, or whatever, you are less likely to achieve a useful result (me broken, concussed, or what have you) than if you utter an invocation to the mighty Thor and swing with all your might.

If I swing a heavier barstool at the same acceleration, or shout said incantation to Thor so that I'm psyched up and swing it with greater acceleration, the force increases. I might not be thinking about it that way, but it's still true.

Whether or not people think or act in scientific terms doesn't have any bearing on the validity of science as a tool for learning about objective reality. It will never be perfect because people are not perfect, same as everything else.

[Thurnez Isa]

However neither of those experiements says anything about the underlying nature of the universe.  All they say is get out of the way of barstools and knives.

Yes it does
What is the nature of the universe other then rules that govern it

[BabylonHoruv]

Listen if I come over to your house and butcher you with a knife... your still dead whether or not you believe in the knife, or ability to butcher you... end of story
The universe is governed by specific principles and whether you want to believe in them or not doesn't have any effect on the validity of these principles... and unless you could come up with an experiment to prove that wrong...
get over it...

Same arguement as the barstool.  Application of material force doesn't mean that my beliefs are wrong, or that yours are right.  Not that mine are right and your are wrong either, just that mine are more useful to me at the moment than any other set I could be using.  I didn't say that I don't believe that a knife thrust to the sternum will kill me, or that a barstool to the head will hurt and probably cause a concussion.  However neither of those experiements says anything about the underlying nature of the universe.  All they say is get out of the way of barstools and knives.

No. But it does mean yours are stupid, if you value life and good health while disbelieving in the power of physical trauma. 

I never said I didn't believe in the power of physical trauma.  And, in RE to your other post, now you are just rephrasing the concept when you say that shouting that invocation to Thor is nothing but psyching yourself up.  If you really believe that Thor is aiding you, making you stronger and allowing you to hit me harder you are going to hit me harder than if you think of it only as psyching yourself up.  In that case Atheism is hampering you from achieving the best possible result.  Whether that is based on the nature of belief and the human psyche or based on the divine powers of Thor is completely irrelevent.  Believing in Thor makes you hit harder.  Science (the philosophy which says Thor doesn't exist, and the barstool is made of mostly empty space) fails in both counts when it comes to getting in a fight with barstools.

RE Thurnez  I also didn't say I don't believe in science.  Science and Atheism are not the same thing.  Science is useful, so I use it, magic is useful, so I use it.  Why deny yourself tools?  I am not pushing a magic vs technology dualism, I am in favor of both.  Science is not always the best tool for all situations however.

Also, barstools and knives are things that hurt and kill doesn't say anything about the rules that govern the universe, they offer useful guides as far as behavior concerning weapons, but none of that has anything to do with how the universe really truly works.

[Thurnez Isa]

1) your not arguing theism here.. your arguing magique and by doing that your saying you can influence reality in some manner.. which, like creationism is a scientific hypothesis making statement on how the world operates... all this without evidence... and Im calling it bullshit

2) you made several states in that science does work.. well guess what... the results are reproducible.. meaning it does

both have NOTHING to do with tools

[Thurnez Isa]

Also, barstools and knives are things that hurt and kill doesn't say anything about the rules that govern the universe, they offer useful guides as far as behavior concerning weapons, but none of that has anything to do with how the universe really truly works.

YES THEY DO
how many times do i have say this
The fact you can feel pain from being hit with bar stole is a small part of HOW THE UNIVERSE OPERATES

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

Science versus magic is a false dichotomy. Magic is part of science, for certain definitions of magic and science. We have had this discussion before, and getting hung up on the wording isn't helping anyone.

Wank all you want. I'm done with this subject, until people start arguing over the semantics rather than the terminology.