What do you REALLY believe?

[Thurnez Isa]

Its not semantics or terminology.. if you have a claim on how the universe operates back it up with EVIDENCE, not just what you want to believe, or personal mumbo jumbo

[BabylonHoruv]

What does barstools hurting have to do with the existence or non existence of gods?  or with magic?

Barstool hurt, that's a simple observation that we can generally all agree on.  

When I cast magic spells, the things I cast them for are more likely to happen.  This is an observation that I have made and that works for me.  Might not work for you, I don't really care, but you seem to care about the fact that i believe it.

I don't see how the two have any relation to one another.

Another observation I have made is that if I act as if deities exist, and pray to them and propitiate them I can get results that I want.  Might not work for you, considering your attitude I doubt they'd like you all that well and I wouldn't really reccomend a theistic approach.  I am still not sure what this has to do with barstools.

On your previous post

1)  Bullshit, very good, you are starting to get it, maybe.  Except for your insistence that I have no evidence.  I have positive results, that is all I need.  If you want positive results I outlined an experiment you could do.  You're a smart guy, I am sure you could come up with one that is more suited to your own approach to the world.

2) this one confuses me, I said science works, you said science works, then your cited reproducability as evidence science works.  Yes, science works, it doesn't require subscribing to the basic philosophical belief system of materialistic atheism to take advantage of it, and subscribing to that belief system would, in my opinion, prevent me from taking advantage of other things, which also work.


And, in response to the latest one.  Why?  Who cares how the universe really truly works?  What matters to me is what I can get it to do for me.

[Thurnez Isa]

Who cares how the universe really truly works?  

everyone

thats why we made up all this bullshit. The problem is that when we started to actually figure out stuff it turned to be really hard and nothing like the bullshit that gave us comfort.

Also stop saying science is atheist ... it is not
A lot of theism is outside of science
your magique is NOT
cause it states it can effect the natural world in some way

and if you know its not true, but still use it cause it works for you, its STILL NOT TRUE

[fomenter]

i am not following the pro majique argument here, you are saying that if you invoke Thor you can effect the universe and the physical outcome (swinging the bar stool harder) will change is this right?

if so the same could be said to work in the reverse correct? if i make a bar-stool swinging machine that swings it exactly the same speed each time and you put your head under it and invoke Thor (or  whatever majique that is appropriate) it will hurt you less when it hits, and by extension if you do it (your magique ) just right it may not hurt at all?? is this what you are claiming?

if it is i can almost guarantee a number of discordians willing to make the bar-stool swinging machine to help you test the theory..

also how do you know your observations of magique working isn't law of fives??

[Thurnez Isa]

and before you write crap about me not believing you or something (which I don't)
YOUR the one making the claim

heres what you do
Tell me what you could do to what degree of accuracy, then perform a double blind test experiment and then analyze the results

Thats how you make your claim respectable... until then it's just bullshit

EDIT: what formenter said

[BabylonHoruv]

and before you write crap about me not believing you or something (which I don't)
YOUR the one making the claim

heres what you do
Tell me what you could do to what degree of accuracy, then perform a double blind test experiment and then analyze the results

Thats how you make your claim respectable... until then it's just bullshit

EDIT: what formenter said

I'm not trying to convince you to believe in magic, however you are trying to convince me not to.  I don't care if you use this tool that works for me or not.  I use it, and it works.  Also, I see no reason that me saying I did a double blind experiment and test results showed me that magic exists is going to be any more believable to you than me saying I use it in my day to day life and it is a useful tool.  Personally I'd be less likely to believe the claim of a double blind experiment as it is a bunch of work, and not at all the usual approach applied by magicians.

and as to the other post, if I didn't believe it was true it wouldn't work for me.  I think you are using everyone when mosbunall would be more appropriate.

I don't know who the god of masochistic fools is, but that's about the only one I can think of who would be of assistance with that barstool swinging machine experiment of fomenters.  I am not claiming magic can make me immune to barstools, I said it can make a difference in things I cannot effect in any other way.  If you start applying it to things you can effect in other ways it is far more effective if you physically work to make things happen than if you work against them happening.  The spell or invocation is going to be more effective if I get out of the way of the barstool swinging machine.  Of course that invalidates the scientific approach to the whole experiment, but that is a big part of why magic is difficult to approach in a scientific manner. 

[Thurnez Isa]

MAGIC WORKS!... just not... ahhh... when... tested

[fomenter]

I don't know who the god of masochistic fools is, but that's about the only one I can think of who would be of assistance with that barstool swinging machine experiment of fomenters.  I am not claiming magic can make me immune to barstools, I said it can make a difference in things I cannot effect in any other way.

the existence of a scientifically testable helmet means the magique has been nullified and wont work any more, but in a world w/o helmets it would work?

  If you start applying it to things you can effect in other ways it is far more effective if you physically work to make things happen than if you work against them happening.  The spell or invocation is going to be more effective if I get out of the way of the bar stool swinging machine.  Of course that invalidates the scientific approach to the whole experiment, but that is a big part of why magic is difficult to approach in a scientific manner. 

so if you are standing under the machine and it moves to fast for you to get out of the way and you do a invocation to manifest a helmet to protect your head the discordians performing the experiment would be more likely to show mercy and give you one to wear? we can test this ...

[Requia ☣]

Wait...

So if I clobber you with a barstool after you've immanentized the eschaton and gotten rid of science as a dominant creator of consensus reality, the force with which it hits you won't equal the mass of the barstool times the acceleration with which I propel it towards your face?

I would be utterly amazed if it did, given that f=ma has nothing to do with the force of the barstool on the magic believer, but rather your force on the barstool.

[Requia ☣]

Listen if I come over to your house and butcher you with a knife... your still dead whether or not you believe in the knife, or ability to butcher you... end of story
The universe is governed by specific principles and whether you want to believe in them or not doesn't have any effect on the validity of these principles... and unless you could come up with an experiment to prove that wrong...
get over it...

Same arguement as the barstool.  Application of material force doesn't mean that my beliefs are wrong, or that yours are right.  Not that mine are right and your are wrong either, just that mine are more useful to me at the moment than any other set I could be using.  I didn't say that I don't believe that a knife thrust to the sternum will kill me, or that a barstool to the head will hurt and probably cause a concussion.  However neither of those experiements says anything about the underlying nature of the universe.  All they say is get out of the way of barstools and knives.

Also I have an experiment for you.  Problem is, it being magic, it rather requires belief in magic.

Pick two results which are equally likely, but unrelated, both of which are things which will or will not be realized in one months time.  Preferably two things that you do not have any control over, as that adds a whole shit ton of extra variables, also, preferably things which have a frequency of occurence between 2/3 and 3/4 of happening purely by chance.

Now, using whatever magical system you believe to be valid, work for one of those results to happen, don't work for the other.

Do this repeatedly over and over, so that you have a representative sample, now see if the one that you worked toward making happen happened more often.

I have not done this, it is a crapload of work to convince me of something that I have already accepted, IE magic works, but if you are interested in approaching it in a way that will get it into your head go ahead and try it.

To apply this specifically to gods, rather than doing a spell, pray for one result or another.  give sacrifice, in whatever way that deity likes.  This I have done often enough that I can say with some reliability that things are more likely to happen if I pray for them than not.  

Funny, a lot of us have, its called the quarters experiment.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Listen if I come over to your house and butcher you with a knife... your still dead whether or not you believe in the knife, or ability to butcher you... end of story
The universe is governed by specific principles and whether you want to believe in them or not doesn't have any effect on the validity of these principles... and unless you could come up with an experiment to prove that wrong...
get over it...

Same arguement as the barstool.  Application of material force doesn't mean that my beliefs are wrong, or that yours are right.  Not that mine are right and your are wrong either, just that mine are more useful to me at the moment than any other set I could be using.  I didn't say that I don't believe that a knife thrust to the sternum will kill me, or that a barstool to the head will hurt and probably cause a concussion.  However neither of those experiements says anything about the underlying nature of the universe.  All they say is get out of the way of barstools and knives.

No. But it does mean yours are stupid, if you value life and good health while disbelieving in the power of physical trauma. 

I never said I didn't believe in the power of physical trauma.

Not the point.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Listen if I come over to your house and butcher you with a knife... your still dead whether or not you believe in the knife, or ability to butcher you... end of story
The universe is governed by specific principles and whether you want to believe in them or not doesn't have any effect on the validity of these principles... and unless you could come up with an experiment to prove that wrong...
get over it...

Same arguement as the barstool.  Application of material force doesn't mean that my beliefs are wrong, or that yours are right.  Not that mine are right and your are wrong either, just that mine are more useful to me at the moment than any other set I could be using.  I didn't say that I don't believe that a knife thrust to the sternum will kill me, or that a barstool to the head will hurt and probably cause a concussion.  However neither of those experiements says anything about the underlying nature of the universe.  All they say is get out of the way of barstools and knives.

No. But it does mean yours are stupid, if you value life and good health while disbelieving in the power of physical trauma. 

And, in RE to your other post, now you are just rephrasing the concept when you say that shouting that invocation to Thor is nothing but psyching yourself up.  If you really believe that Thor is aiding you, making you stronger and allowing you to hit me harder you are going to hit me harder than if you think of it only as psyching yourself up.  In that case Atheism is hampering you from achieving the best possible result.  Whether that is based on the nature of belief and the human psyche or based on the divine powers of Thor is completely irrelevent.  Believing in Thor makes you hit harder.  Science (the philosophy which says Thor doesn't exist, and the barstool is made of mostly empty space) fails in both counts when it comes to getting in a fight with barstools.

Says you. See, I don't believe this is true, and therefore it is not a part of my physical reality, and you are utterly incapable of convincing me otherwise.

LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEEEEEAAAAAR YOOOOOOUUU!


But honestly, I've pretty much been yanking your chain. I know the importance of being able to radically change perspectives for what subjectively seems to be a superior result. I don't think dissing science needs to be a part of that AT ALL, because it makes one look like a fucking idiot. It's even dumber to try and pass off the altered perspectives as "real" just because our experience of the world is ultimately subjective. If something seems to work for you then unless you have something like, I dunno, SCIENCE to back it up (i.e. demonstrate that it happened in an objective sense that other people can see for themselves) then the only people who are going to believe you are chumps. Of course, there's plenty of chumps out there, so have fun.

[LMNO]

Listen if I come over to your house and butcher you with a knife... your still dead whether or not you believe in the knife, or ability to butcher you... end of story
The universe is governed by specific principles and whether you want to believe in them or not doesn't have any effect on the validity of these principles... and unless you could come up with an experiment to prove that wrong...
get over it...

Same arguement as the barstool.  Application of material force doesn't mean that my beliefs are wrong, or that yours are right.  Not that mine are right and your are wrong either, just that mine are more useful to me at the moment than any other set I could be using.  I didn't say that I don't believe that a knife thrust to the sternum will kill me, or that a barstool to the head will hurt and probably cause a concussion.  However neither of those experiements says anything about the underlying nature of the universe.  All they say is get out of the way of barstools and knives.

Also I have an experiment for you.  Problem is, it being magic, it rather requires belief in magic.

Pick two results which are equally likely, but unrelated, both of which are things which will or will not be realized in one months time.  Preferably two things that you do not have any control over, as that adds a whole shit ton of extra variables, also, preferably things which have a frequency of occurence between 2/3 and 3/4 of happening purely by chance.

Now, using whatever magical system you believe to be valid, work for one of those results to happen, don't work for the other.

Do this repeatedly over and over, so that you have a representative sample, now see if the one that you worked toward making happen happened more often.

I have not done this, it is a crapload of work to convince me of something that I have already accepted, IE magic works, but if you are interested in approaching it in a way that will get it into your head go ahead and try it.

To apply this specifically to gods, rather than doing a spell, pray for one result or another.  give sacrifice, in whatever way that deity likes.  This I have done often enough that I can say with some reliability that things are more likely to happen if I pray for them than not.  

Funny, a lot of us have, its called the quarters experiment.

Which is to say, an example of the Law of Fives in action.  The problem is, the above experiment does not carry through the entire process; it is stopped when the a priori conclusion is reached.






...Also, did I actually read the phrase, "the chi flow in your nose"?

[Triple Zero]

...Also, did I actually read the phrase, "the chi flow in your nose"?

You're supposed to say gesundheit.

[BabylonHoruv]

...Also, did I actually read the phrase, "the chi flow in your nose"?

You did.  If that isn't clear enough evidence that I am not taking myself too seriously I don't know what is.