My Country

[Elder Iptuous]

so, is the consensus here that political participation is a good thing as an end unto itself?

I think it is indeed good to be active in the political process of your country.

Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society?  or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?

[Golden Applesauce]

so, is the consensus here that political participation is a good thing as an end unto itself?

I think it is indeed good to be active in the political process of your country.

Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society?  or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?

I think the idea is that those people are voting anyway, and reasonable people need to vote as much as possible to balance out teh stupid.

Most people believe that they're in the majority, and therefore if everyone voted their guy would win, hands down.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consensus_effect

[Jenne]

so, is the consensus here that political participation is a good thing as an end unto itself?

I think it is indeed good to be active in the political process of your country.

Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society?  or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?

EQUALITY means ALL.  What you said above is one of the many acceptable costs.

Because the definition of the above changes with whoever comes to power.  You never realize this unless you are one of the many who have always felt on the fringes, always felt you are of the above, and so you say, "Why vote?  My opinion doesn't matter, after all."

[Adios]

so, is the consensus here that political participation is a good thing as an end unto itself?

I think it is indeed good to be active in the political process of your country.

Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society?  or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?

I sense you are trying to lead this somewhere but I'll play along.

Yes, everyone.

[Rumckle]

Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society?  or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?

Unfortunately it's a slippery slope

[Pope Lecherous]

Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society?  or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?

If you dont vote when you get the opportunity, the man will take away your right to vote...  Even those small elections that no one really participates in.

[Elder Iptuous]

Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society?  or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?

I sense you are trying to lead this somewhere but I'll play along.
Yes, everyone.

No. i don't have some angle here. just a face value query.
My views on this have been in flux, and i was just wondering how people here weigh in on that.  i noticed that some of the more politically vocal on this board are very intolerant vitriolic uncompromising on certain beliefs, and i thought they perhaps would like those think differently to not participate.  I can see both sides of the issue, but i have become more cynical towards universal participation as of late.
i dunno, i'm rambling....

[singer]

so, is the consensus here that political participation is a good thing as an end unto itself?

I think it is indeed good to be active in the political process of your country.

Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society?  or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?

Haven't they been participating all along?  More participants just may = dilution of present sludgy poisonous thought patterns.

[Jenne]

Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society?  or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?

I sense you are trying to lead this somewhere but I'll play along.
Yes, everyone.

No. i don't have some angle here. just a face value query.
My views on this have been in flux, and i was just wondering how people here weigh in on that.  i noticed that some of the more politically vocal on this board are very intolerant vitriolic uncompromising on certain beliefs, and i thought they perhaps would like those think differently to not participate.  I can see both sides of the issue, but i have become more cynical towards universal participation as of late.
i dunno, i'm rambling....

Having strong opinions =/= intolerance.  Being able to back up what you have to say =/= uncompromising, esp when you ask the same of your fellow interlocutor.

What you've come upon in this forum are people who actually for the most part give a shit and are willing to go to the mat for their beliefs--"Joe Sixpack" doesn't give a flying fuck.  And he's yes just as dangerous to the system as anyone with "vitriol" behind their philosophies.

Because to me, apathy does FAR WORSE to a democracy, republic, whateverthefuck where the people have a "say," than any strong opinions held by that same set of people.

[Elder Iptuous]

Having strong opinions =/= intolerance.  Being able to back up what you have to say =/= uncompromising, esp when you ask the same of your fellow interlocutor.

What you've come upon in this forum are people who actually for the most part give a shit and are willing to go to the mat for their beliefs--"Joe Sixpack" doesn't give a flying fuck.  And he's yes just as dangerous to the system as anyone with "vitriol" behind their philosophies.

Because to me, apathy does FAR WORSE to a democracy, republic, whateverthefuck where the people have a "say," than any strong opinions held by that same set of people.

all very true.  So should the apathetic 'rock the vote'?

[Jenne]

IDK what you mean by "rock the vote," Ippy, but become engaged before they tank us again in year after year of FAIL like what GWB steered us straight into (which we will be paying for for DECADES), yes.

It's a tautological fallacy, a nice little lazy opiate, to say that apathy gets you anywhere.  It's a convenient red herring completely and falsely removing adult responsibility.  And yes, I believe in civic duty--like paying taxes, sitting on jury duty and driving inside the lines of the roads.  Not voting is the lazy person's way of reaping benefits they don't want to do jackshit to create themselves.

[Elder Iptuous]

IDK what you mean by "rock the vote," Ippy, but become engaged before they tank us again in year after year of FAIL like what GWB steered us straight into (which we will be paying for for DECADES), yes.

It's a tautological fallacy, a nice little lazy opiate, to say that apathy gets you anywhere.  It's a convenient red herring completely and falsely removing adult responsibility.  And yes, I believe in civic duty--like paying taxes, sitting on jury duty and driving inside the lines of the roads.  Not voting is the lazy person's way of reaping benefits they don't want to do jackshit to create themselves.

By 'rock the vote', i mean go out and vote for someone that gives some superficial incentive to do so, or because some media star got you pumped up about what you are not really informed about.  This is regardless of whether the candidate would be a good one (which they very well could be...)  It seems like encouraging participation for its own sake without being 'qualified' through any respectable amount of knowledge is counter productive, and leads to an inordinate amount of time spent on pandering to armies of the impressionable and emotionally reactive.
As for myself, i am somewhat active politically.  I engage in political discourse with friends and neighbors whenever i get a chance, vote in primaries and general elections, have been a delegate at the district and state level, and have considered finding some dog catcher position to insert myself at some point.
I am not advocating political apathy, if that is what you are afraid i'm saying.  I'm just saying that it might not be good to request votes from those that are apathetic.

[Jenne]

IDK what you mean by "rock the vote," Ippy, but become engaged before they tank us again in year after year of FAIL like what GWB steered us straight into (which we will be paying for for DECADES), yes.

It's a tautological fallacy, a nice little lazy opiate, to say that apathy gets you anywhere.  It's a convenient red herring completely and falsely removing adult responsibility.  And yes, I believe in civic duty--like paying taxes, sitting on jury duty and driving inside the lines of the roads.  Not voting is the lazy person's way of reaping benefits they don't want to do jackshit to create themselves.

By 'rock the vote', i mean go out and vote for someone that gives some superficial incentive to do so, or because some media star got you pumped up about what you are not really informed about.  This is regardless of whether the candidate would be a good one (which they very well could be...)  It seems like encouraging participation for its own sake without being 'qualified' through any respectable amount of knowledge is counter productive, and leads to an inordinate amount of time spent on pandering to armies of the impressionable and emotionally reactive.
As for myself, i am somewhat active politically.  I engage in political discourse with friends and neighbors whenever i get a chance, vote in primaries and general elections, have been a delegate at the district and state level, and have considered finding some dog catcher position to insert myself at some point.
I am not advocating political apathy, if that is what you are afraid i'm saying.  I'm just saying that it might not be good to request votes from those that are apathetic.

Why not?  Voting for the sake of voting, or because your teacher, brother, fellow politcian, dog'sbrother'scousin'saunt tells you to is not any different than because some asshole with $$$$ in his backpocket gives a shit and tells you to give a shit.

The act of voting itself is a public demonstration that the system is still in play.  It's a monument to public justice, as you will, and you stand together with your fellow citizen and pay hommage to the rights you were very luckily born into.

Maybe my problem is I know too many immigrants who've had to fight for the right to do this--this thing that so many throw away.  Whatever reason you have for getting involved, it does not negate nor invalidate the fact you did it.  That fact is too grand and great for any petty reason to get in the way.  Unless you're committing fraud.

In this day and age, EMBRACING your rights, and allowing everyone the same freedom to do so, no matter how or WHY they choose to do so, seems more to the point.

[Elder Iptuous]

also good points.
I'm guessing the immigrants denied the right to be directly involved in the political process also take the time to become informed (to whatever extent they can)  This is qualitatively different from the kids who are voting based on some emotional plea and a pithy phrase.  I've talked to some and they can't give any valid reason why they are voting the way they are voting. (assuming that validity is based on reasoned decisions about the impact of likely policies implemented)  And this was from 'both' sides mind you.

as an aside, who was it that had in their sig "it's not enough to have the right to be wrong; you must exercise it!"
If someone walks into the booth and randomly pulls the levers, i don't see how this could possibly be doing any good for the system, and can definitely see where it would be hurting the system.

[The Dark Monk]

I think it was a meme somewhere along the lines, and a very sarcastic one at that.