WARNING: D&D TALK

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Put it this way - if you pulled the pin on one, you wouldn't have to worry about the lich anymore 

Either that, or we'd have a whole continent of zombies... probably controlled by a lich

Though in a recent Solomon Kane game, we fought a evil Irish mummy, living in China, that controlled a bunch of zombies....

[Golden Applesauce]

Can the Tarrasque deal with a flying character?  No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with an invisible character? No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with an incorporeal character? No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with a Wall of Force? No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with Solid Fog? No.

you make some good points here
but let's not worry about items and feats and class levels and minions --- this is a stat card vs stat card battle

shapechange is no good, the lich would only become a 25HD tarrasque... and besides, you can't turn into unique creatures with shapechange, which rules out big T right off the bat.

nor would suggestion work, as the Tarrasque doesn't know any languages.

the lich has an easy, easy time staying out of the Tarrasque's range. Walls of force, teleportation, flying 100 feet off the ground... Tarrasque can do nothing about that.

Or the lich could just go invisible and stand still and continue to stillcast / silent cast spells, and the Tarrasque would never find him (spot & listen 17) -- but what spells? The lich has to do 868 points of damage on top of the Tarrasque regenerating 40/round.

I think if it came down to it, it might be a stalemate. Unless the tarrasque can actually close the distance and get in a full attack.

It's been forever since I've played D&D, so I've forgotten a lot of the minutiae of individual spells.  As far as suggestion goes one could just cast tongues on the Tarrasque, but dominate monster works better anyway.  Correct on the shapechange, forgot that there was a max HD limit.  It's still one of the most potent buffs in the game.

As far as damaging the Tarrasque goes, you really don't need to.  Withstanding physical punishment is about the only thing the Tarrasque is good at - don't play to its strengths.  That said, the demilich has the option of just beating through the damage anyway, so let's explore that.

The Tarrasque has regeneration 40 and needs to take ~870 damage to be killed with a wish.  So all you needs is a spell that continuously deals more than 40 damage a turn.  Incendiary cloud deals 4d6 fire a turn; using energy substitution (to avoid immunity to fire) and Intensify Spell, it does 48 a turn, reflex half.  That's not particularly useful, since it would require more optimization to get the save DC high enough, and the net damage is only 8 a turn, but you get the drift.

With sufficient buffs, I'm confident that the demilich could actually go HTH with the Tarrasque, using things like displacement, greater blink, improved invisibility, shapechange (into a Pit Fiend works well - Dex 27 pre Manual of Quickness and Gloves of Dexterity and natural armor +23) and haste - remembering that the demilich also gets an insight bonus to AC equal to its HD, the demilich's HP is going to be stupidly high.  10 base + 21 insight (for a level 21 demilich) + 23 natural + 14 dex + 5 deflection (rings of deflection +5) + 5 armor (bracers of armor +5) + 1 dodge (from haste) +1 luck (from any of a dozen different magical items) gives an AC of 80, and that's without really trying.  The Tarrasque... can't hit that with just a +57 on attacks (except for nat 20s, and even those miss if the Tarrasque can't guess where the silent, invisible demilich is, or if it misses do to displacement.)  The demilich has harm at will as a spell like ability, which does 150 damage/hit (will half, DC 10+HD+Cha, which is only 36 if the original wizard had charisma 8.  Figure base charisma of 14, +2 for being a lich, +10 for being a demilich, +6 for a cloak of charisma, and we're looking at a DC 40+ save that the Tarrasque can't make.)  The demilich also gets free quickening on all spells level 3 or lower, and can probably quicken up to level 6 spells if he prepares them - so he's using a potent spell every turn, on top of dealing 150 - 40 = 110 damage a turn from doing the harm touch.  Even if the Tarrasque gets a hit in - and he only does this on a natural 20, when he doesn't attack a mirror image, knows where the invisible demilich is, and wins the coin flip on displacement and again on greater blink - each hit tops out at 4d8+17, or ~30, (the demilich is immune to x3 critical hits by virtue of being an undead,) which the demilich can recover just by using harm on itself.

If you allow books like Complete Arcane or the Spell Compendium, the odds just get even more stacked.  The maw of chaos spell does caster level d6/round over an area; trap the Tarrasque in with walls of force and that's good game.

This is all assuming a very uncreative demilich.  The demilich could just as easily gate in a few 40+ HD Terrible Monsters.  The Brain Collector from ELHb in particular has a 50/50 chance every d4 rounds of outright killing the Tarrasque, and creatures like a Sirrush could at least hold their own.  The Vermiurge deals damage equal to the Tarrasque's HP on a failed save, and 10d10 otherwise... every turn.  Or the demilich could just get the Tarrasque to step on a teleportation circle set to the middle of the open ocean and watch it drown.  (or open up a gate to the Elemental Plane of Water.)  Submerge it in mud and then transmute mud to rock.  Mind control wins.  A good illusion spell can convince the Tarrasque that there's nothing to fight.  Plane shift him to the Abyss, and let somebody else deal with it.  Drop really big rocks on it's head from high up.

[Golden Applesauce]

what the FUCK would we do if the tarrasque attacked the USA?




ETA: or a demilich for that matter.
I think a demilich would be WAY more dangerous in the long run.

Which one can control every head of state with mind lasers?
Which one can use magic surveillance that would make Big Brother feel flatly uninformed?
Which one can use major creation to get a critical mass of his fissionable of choice?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Can the Tarrasque deal with a flying character?  No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with an invisible character? No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with an incorporeal character? No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with a Wall of Force? No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with Solid Fog? No.

you make some good points here
but let's not worry about items and feats and class levels and minions --- this is a stat card vs stat card battle

shapechange is no good, the lich would only become a 25HD tarrasque... and besides, you can't turn into unique creatures with shapechange, which rules out big T right off the bat.

nor would suggestion work, as the Tarrasque doesn't know any languages.

the lich has an easy, easy time staying out of the Tarrasque's range. Walls of force, teleportation, flying 100 feet off the ground... Tarrasque can do nothing about that.

Or the lich could just go invisible and stand still and continue to stillcast / silent cast spells, and the Tarrasque would never find him (spot & listen 17) -- but what spells? The lich has to do 868 points of damage on top of the Tarrasque regenerating 40/round.

I think if it came down to it, it might be a stalemate. Unless the tarrasque can actually close the distance and get in a full attack.

It's been forever since I've played D&D, so I've forgotten a lot of the minutiae of individual spells.  As far as suggestion goes one could just cast tongues on the Tarrasque, but dominate monster works better anyway.  Correct on the shapechange, forgot that there was a max HD limit.  It's still one of the most potent buffs in the game.

As far as damaging the Tarrasque goes, you really don't need to.  Withstanding physical punishment is about the only thing the Tarrasque is good at - don't play to its strengths.  That said, the demilich has the option of just beating through the damage anyway, so let's explore that.

The Tarrasque has regeneration 40 and needs to take ~870 damage to be killed with a wish.  So all you needs is a spell that continuously deals more than 40 damage a turn.  Incendiary cloud deals 4d6 fire a turn; using energy substitution (to avoid immunity to fire) and Intensify Spell, it does 48 a turn, reflex half.  That's not particularly useful, since it would require more optimization to get the save DC high enough, and the net damage is only 8 a turn, but you get the drift.

With sufficient buffs, I'm confident that the demilich could actually go HTH with the Tarrasque, using things like displacement, greater blink, improved invisibility, shapechange (into a Pit Fiend works well - Dex 27 pre Manual of Quickness and Gloves of Dexterity and natural armor +23) and haste - remembering that the demilich also gets an insight bonus to AC equal to its HD, the demilich's HP is going to be stupidly high.  10 base + 21 insight (for a level 21 demilich) + 23 natural + 14 dex + 5 deflection (rings of deflection +5) + 5 armor (bracers of armor +5) + 1 dodge (from haste) +1 luck (from any of a dozen different magical items) gives an AC of 80, and that's without really trying.  The Tarrasque... can't hit that with just a +57 on attacks (except for nat 20s, and even those miss if the Tarrasque can't guess where the silent, invisible demilich is, or if it misses do to displacement.)  The demilich has harm at will as a spell like ability, which does 150 damage/hit (will half, DC 10+HD+Cha, which is only 36 if the original wizard had charisma 8.  Figure base charisma of 14, +2 for being a lich, +10 for being a demilich, +6 for a cloak of charisma, and we're looking at a DC 40+ save that the Tarrasque can't make.)  The demilich also gets free quickening on all spells level 3 or lower, and can probably quicken up to level 6 spells if he prepares them - so he's using a potent spell every turn, on top of dealing 150 - 40 = 110 damage a turn from doing the harm touch.  Even if the Tarrasque gets a hit in - and he only does this on a natural 20, when he doesn't attack a mirror image, knows where the invisible demilich is, and wins the coin flip on displacement and again on greater blink - each hit tops out at 4d8+17, or ~30, (the demilich is immune to x3 critical hits by virtue of being an undead,) which the demilich can recover just by using harm on itself.

If you allow books like Complete Arcane or the Spell Compendium, the odds just get even more stacked.  The maw of chaos spell does caster level d6/round over an area; trap the Tarrasque in with walls of force and that's good game.

This is all assuming a very uncreative demilich.  The demilich could just as easily gate in a few 40+ HD Terrible Monsters.  The Brain Collector from ELHb in particular has a 50/50 chance every d4 rounds of outright killing the Tarrasque, and creatures like a Sirrush could at least hold their own.  The Vermiurge deals damage equal to the Tarrasque's HP on a failed save, and 10d10 otherwise... every turn.  Or the demilich could just get the Tarrasque to step on a teleportation circle set to the middle of the open ocean and watch it drown.  (or open up a gate to the Elemental Plane of Water.)  Submerge it in mud and then transmute mud to rock.  Mind control wins.  A good illusion spell can convince the Tarrasque that there's nothing to fight.  Plane shift him to the Abyss, and let somebody else deal with it.  Drop really big rocks on it's head from high up.

Cram, I think we just got pwnd on RPG geeking 

[Golden Applesauce]

and I think you're right about illusions being the way to slay the thing. The Tarrasque's will save is only +20. But remember, you've gotta neg ten it AND wish it dead in the same round, or it's gonna get back up in six seconds.

If I were the demilich, here's how I would do it:

*Go invisible. Fly above big T's head.
*If fighting in close quarters, allow yourself to be swallowed whole - being in the tarrasque's stomach is safer than facing its full attack, and the lich can stillcast while grappled anyway.
*Use a quickened phantasmal-killer spell - you have to be quick, because you need the standard action to cast wish and finish the thing.

The Tarrasque gets three rolls to resist the PK: spell resist, will save, fortitude save. If he fails all three, he will die of fear (but still be regenerating) and the lich will wish him dead.

If the lich can't get off the wish spell, he'll have to find a way to do 40 damage AND cast a wish in the same round. Which I think might be impossible given the tarrasque's immunities to rays, cones, fire, poison, disease, energy drain, etc etc etc

Quickened Wish, or a Delayed damage spell.  That's what epic levels are for.

[Vene]

DnD Geekery

You're obviously put some thought into this.  Come up with your gaming group at some point?

[Golden Applesauce]

Cram, I think we just got pwnd on RPG geeking 

If you think this is bad, check out Wizard's of the Coasts forums.  The optimization board in particular is disturbing.

Pun-Pun the Kobold ascends to diefic powers starting at... I believe they got him down to beginning at level 5?
The Hulking Hurler prestige class, optimized, can pick up and throw the planet/moon of your choice.

[Golden Applesauce]

DnD Geekery

You're obviously put some thought into this.  Come up with your gaming group at some point?

Those are just standard ways to win as an epic level wizard.

[Kai]

I think the problem with people in this thread thinking the Tarrasque would win, is that they determine a win to be the petrified almost death of the Tarrasque, which really wouldn't KILL it, just keep it in an almost dead state for all eternity, or until someone else unwishes it from that state.

GL had the right idea: the only way to really win against the Tarrasque is to make it someone else's problem. Send it to the abyss or the plane of fire, or to one of the planes of energy (thats a good one actually).

[P3nT4gR4m]

You could always just have sex with it.






... okay, now I'm trolling 

[Triple Zero]

i heard that there's sexually deviant Demi-Liches that teleport into a pair of mating Tarrasques' stomachs, wearing them as fur-suits.

i'm okay with that, as long as nobody gets hurt.

[Nast]

i heard that there's sexually deviant Demi-Liches that teleport into a pair of mating Tarrasques' stomachs, wearing them as fur-suits.

i'm okay with that, as long as nobody gets hurt.

[Kai]

i heard that there's sexually deviant Demi-Liches that teleport into a pair of mating Tarrasques' stomachs, wearing them as fur-suits.

i'm okay with that, as long as nobody gets hurt.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

i heard that there's sexually deviant Demi-Liches that teleport into a pair of mating Tarrasques' stomachs, wearing them as fur-suits.

i'm okay with that, as long as nobody gets hurt.

[Triple Zero]

 

(c'mon guys, it's three posts into a D&D geeking thread and nobody has yet pointed out this is impossible because the Tarrasque is unique)