WARNING: D&D TALK

[Prelate Diogenes Shandor]

Also, even if the new system was better, (and I don't think that it is) it wouldn't change the fact that the release of 4e so soon after 3.5e was a huge betrayal of their (in many cases formerly) loyal customers, an act of undisguised greed, and effectively an admission that they have abandoned all pretense of caring about or respecting the consumer.

I had expected better from them; I really did....

[PopeTom]

some things.

Baseless nerd rage noted.

Why didn't this nerd rage start when 3.5 was release only 3 years after 3.0 was released?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, even if the new system was better, (and I don't think that it is) it wouldn't change the fact that the release of 4e so soon after 3.5e was a huge betrayal of their (in many cases formerly) loyal customers, an act of undisguised greed, and effectively an admission that they have abandoned all pretense of caring about or respecting the consumer.

I had expected better from them; I really did....

One word:  Hasbro.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

some things.

Baseless nerd rage noted.

Why didn't this nerd rage start when 3.5 was release only 3 years after 3.0 was released?

3.5 was more of a correction.  It wasn't a fundamental change, and all my 3.0 stuff basically worked with 3.5 without the need for major re-writes.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Personally, ever since 4th Edition came out I have made a point of not buying any Wizards of The Coast products. I will never buy another one of their products again (unless it is a previously used product that they therefore would not profit from (the sale of) anyway. (...Hey, why should I suffer just because I'm boycotting a company?...) I have actually bought a more expensive copy of some WoTC products on Amazon.com because all of the cheaper copies were new!).   

I seriously hope that they go out of business 

Check out Paizo's pathfinder "3.75".  Totally back compatible with 3.5, and cleaned up a BUNCH.  They even made grapple work easily.

http://paizo.com/paizo

[PopeTom]

My current barbarian, for example, can be hit in the head with an axe a very good of times... and within a week he's completely forgotten these brutal axe wounds. I'd rather a wounding system, where damage dealt is actually significant.

That's the point of the abstraction though.  A hit with an attack roll does not directly translate to a physical hit on your character.  Sometimes it's your luck running out, sometimes it's barely getting out of the way but you are now in a less tenable position, or sometimes it's just your character being overwhelmed by the dire situation he/she is in.  It is not that hard to work into the narration of combat to the point where over the span of a fight there are only one or two solid hits that do physical damage to the character.

[Requia ☣]

Personally, ever since 4th Edition came out I have made a point of not buying any Wizards of The Coast products. I will never buy another one of their products again (unless it is a previously used product that they therefore would not profit from (the sale of) anyway. (...Hey, why should I suffer just because I'm boycotting a company?...) I have actually bought a more expensive copy of some WoTC products on Amazon.com because all of the cheaper copies were new!).   

I seriously hope that they go out of business 

Check out Paizo's pathfinder "3.75".  Totally back compatible with 3.5, and cleaned up a BUNCH.  They even made grapple work easily.

http://paizo.com/paizo

Pathfinder is awesome.  Only played the beta version though.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Personally, ever since 4th Edition came out I have made a point of not buying any Wizards of The Coast products. I will never buy another one of their products again (unless it is a previously used product that they therefore would not profit from (the sale of) anyway. (...Hey, why should I suffer just because I'm boycotting a company?...) I have actually bought a more expensive copy of some WoTC products on Amazon.com because all of the cheaper copies were new!).   

I seriously hope that they go out of business 

Check out Paizo's pathfinder "3.75".  Totally back compatible with 3.5, and cleaned up a BUNCH.  They even made grapple work easily.

http://paizo.com/paizo

Pathfinder is awesome.  Only played the beta version though.

The full release is WAY better.  CMB got totally redone, and it works, now.  Spellcraft IDs items instead of appraise.  Cleave got fixed.  Races got fixed...but half-orcs got SHAFTED.

Also, you pick your preferred class, it's not race driven.

[PopeTom]

some things.

Baseless nerd rage noted.

Why didn't this nerd rage start when 3.5 was release only 3 years after 3.0 was released?

3.5 was more of a correction.  It wasn't a fundamental change, and all my 3.0 stuff basically worked with 3.5 without the need for major re-writes.

What things do you feel need a major rewrite for 4th?  A lot of the basics have already been rewritten for 4th by Wizards of the Coast.
Most of what's left over isn't too difficult to convert by tweaking already existing rules/powers.

Keep in mind that part of the goal of 4th was to remove 'save or die' situations and 'I win buttons'.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

some things.

Baseless nerd rage noted.

Why didn't this nerd rage start when 3.5 was release only 3 years after 3.0 was released?

3.5 was more of a correction.  It wasn't a fundamental change, and all my 3.0 stuff basically worked with 3.5 without the need for major re-writes.

What things do you feel need a major rewrite for 4th?  A lot of the basics have already been rewritten for 4th by Wizards of the Coast.
Most of what's left over isn't too difficult to convert by tweaking already existing rules/powers.

Keep in mind that part of the goal of 4th was to remove 'save or die' situations and 'I win buttons'.

Compared to 2nd ed, 3.5 already fixed that shit.  The goal of 4th was to sell core rulebooks yet again, and to design the game to require (or almost require) add-ons like power cards, etc.

The ultimate insult was the "D&D insider", where they proudly announced that you now had the privilege of paying $10/month for FAQs, etc, that were up to that point free.

[Golden Applesauce]

The ultimate insult was the "D&D insider", where they proudly announced that you now had the privilege of paying $10/month for FAQs, etc, that were up to that point free.

Now I remember what actually pissed me off about the transition.  I used to read (or at least check) the articles on their website as part of my daily routine before that.

[PopeTom]

Compared to 2nd ed, 3.5 already fixed that shit. 

Save or die starts off pretty much at 1st level.

Color Spray
Entangle (depending on how difficult a DC 20 Strength or Escape Artist check would be)
Hypnotism
Sleep

I Win Buttons are usually a higher level caster though the various Detect <Alignment> spells can be a bit of a lesser I Win Button depending on the kind of campaign/adventure.  A Human spiked chain trip Fighter(1st level) or Monk(2nd level) can be an I Win Button early on.

The goal of 4th was to sell core rulebooks yet again, and to design the game to require (or almost require) add-ons like power cards, etc.

You can run a decent D&D game with the three core books, you need no other books, special cards, or subscription to DDI.

The ultimate insult was the "D&D insider", where they proudly announced that you now had the privilege of paying $10/month for FAQs, etc, that were up to that point free.

Dungeon offers DM advice and adventures, Dragon offers Player advice, additional feats and powers for published classes, and fully playable previews of upcoming content.

A DDI subscription gives you access to the Character Builder which not only does all the math for your character but prints out all your powers on 'cards' so you don't need to go buy anything extra.  It also gives you access to the Adventure Tools which right now is only the Monster builder.  From a DMs perspective though the Monster Builder is the best thing ever.  Not only does it easily allow a DM to adjust the level of any monster presented in any official D&D content it also allows you to cut and paste monster powers so you can easily build custom creatures.  You can then copy the adjusted/custom monster stat block and paste it into a Word document for easy reference at the game table.

And here's the neat thing, you really only need to have one DDI subscriber in your group for everyone to benefit.  Though I would imagine in most cases this would be the DM. If $10 per month it too much for one person to bear than a gaming group of 5 (4 players 1 DM) could chip in $2 per month per person.  If I was playing in a 4th Ed. group I'd gladly give my DM $2 a month to access just the tools alone and make the game experience a lot easier for everyone playing.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by FAQs in this case but rules updates still seem to be free for all.

[Prelate Diogenes Shandor]

some things.

Baseless nerd rage noted.

Why didn't this nerd rage start when 3.5 was release only 3 years after 3.0 was released?

3.5 was more of a correction.  It wasn't a fundamental change, and all my 3.0 stuff basically worked with 3.5 without the need for major re-writes.

What things do you feel need a major rewrite for 4th?  A lot of the basics have already been rewritten for 4th by Wizards of the Coast.
Most of what's left over isn't too difficult to convert by tweaking already existing rules/powers.

Keep in mind that part of the goal of 4th was to remove 'save or die' situations and 'I win buttons'.

Compared to 2nd ed, 3.5 already fixed that shit.  The goal of 4th was to sell core rulebooks yet again, and to design the game to require (or almost require) add-ons like power cards, etc.

The ultimate insult was the "D&D insider", where they proudly announced that you now had the privilege of paying $10/month for FAQs, etc, that were up to that point free.

EXACTLY!

And if I ever have the urge to deal with that kind of Macchiavellian bullshit I can play Paranoia XP instead. That way I only have to pretend to bow down to faceless and evil manipulators...

[Requia ☣]

Personally, ever since 4th Edition came out I have made a point of not buying any Wizards of The Coast products. I will never buy another one of their products again (unless it is a previously used product that they therefore would not profit from (the sale of) anyway. (...Hey, why should I suffer just because I'm boycotting a company?...) I have actually bought a more expensive copy of some WoTC products on Amazon.com because all of the cheaper copies were new!).   

I seriously hope that they go out of business 

Check out Paizo's pathfinder "3.75".  Totally back compatible with 3.5, and cleaned up a BUNCH.  They even made grapple work easily.

http://paizo.com/paizo

Pathfinder is awesome.  Only played the beta version though.

The full release is WAY better.  CMB got totally redone, and it works, now.  Spellcraft IDs items instead of appraise.  Cleave got fixed.  Races got fixed...but half-orcs got SHAFTED.

Also, you pick your preferred class, it's not race driven.

Half orcs have always been shafted.  Its pretty much a requirement.

[Golden Applesauce]

And here's the neat thing, you really only need to have one DDI subscriber in your group for everyone to benefit.  Though I would imagine in most cases this would be the DM. If $10 per month it too much for one person to bear than a gaming group of 5 (4 players 1 DM) could chip in $2 per month per person.  If I was playing in a 4th Ed. group I'd gladly give my DM $2 a month to access just the tools alone and make the game experience a lot easier for everyone playing.

I'd argue that Dragon is/was (don't know how it looks now) much more useful.  I don't remember how much a subscription was, but it was a lot less that $120 a year.  At most 1/3 that.