Mindsculpting: Eris loves you.

[Cain]

As stated above and by BAWHEED and I, it certainly isn't the view of Eris presented in the book for which this site is named.  It seems to borrow more from the classical Greek idea of Eris, but there's no good reason to choose that view over the other.

Are you perhaps a victim of indigestion?

This too is my problem with BIP - there's very little joy in it.  Hill and Thornley were clowns, pointing out the absurdity of life in a fun way, and that for me is a large part of the point of Discordianism.  "The Enlightened Take Things Lightly."  Cynicism is easy, and pervasive in our culture, and frankly I'm kinda sick of it.  It benefits no one - even the cynic who uses it as a shield is only admitting the crappiness of life and using their cynicism as a shield against it.

Ditch the shield, and instead take up the sword.

Oh, I see.  The problem is our view of Eris (insomuch as I can speak for the other members of the forum or indeed claim we share a common conception which in all likelihood we do not) is badwrong.  We should adhere to your vision of Eris because it is doubleplus good, even though as you yourself admit, "there is no good reason to choose [one] view over another".

Well if there is no good reason, why choose it?

Perhaps some of us prefer our view of Eris?  I came to Discordianism via my interest in Greek mythology and worldview.  I know enough about the Greek social and religious views of the time to converse with academics who specialize in the period.  I know historically that my viewpoint has more validity than other interpretations and I prefer a harsh truth to a comforting lie.

The Universe is struggle and conflict, generated by independent agents with flawed understandings of their world and especially those inhabit it.  Change is the only Universal constant, and those who deny it will get smashed upon the jagged rocks of History, or else stagnate into irrelevance on the shore.  But if you know the waves are coming, and something of the sea, you can ride the crest instead.

I laugh because the world is both tragedy and comedy, for someone with perspective. 

What you are suggesting is sticking your head in the sand with a pacifier and soothing balms about how the Universe works.  Well if the Universe loves me so fucking much, why am I £20,000 in debt and unemployed for the last 6 months?  Could it be, in fact, that such beliefs are little more than pallitatives for those who have reached a certain level of comfort and satisfaction in life and wish to wall themselves off from the harsh existence of others, should it affect their mood too much and spoil their feelings of contentment?  I don't know, but its certainly one explanation, and sounds plausible.

Your "sword" is only another shield, that of ignorance.  I stare my life in the face, without crutches, and weather it, because I know the struggle to survive improves, and that which does not kill me makes me stronger (or leaves me crippled, but lets save that argument for another time).  I have an acute sense of black humour, the sort that only people who live on the edge of ruin truly appreciate.  Maybe its not a humour to your liking, but it certainly exists, and I have laughed harder in the past year than at any other time in my life.  The jokes are funnier and the humour more acute, with this kind of lifestyle.

Incidentally, the argument "well it was like that in TEH BOOK" wont hold much water here.

You are certainly free to live the way you choose, and how you see most fit.  But I don't see why the rest of us should have to put up with your complaining that we are badwrong cynical Discordians.  Because if you really want to down that road, the above is only a taster of what is to come.

[Cain]

Not to mention dogma is so 2004, and it smells no better coming from a beatnik tract than it does anywhere else.

[shadowfurry23]

The Universe or deities having any sort of opinions on me scares the shit out of me.

Its like knowing the chief of operations at the CIA, or Osama Bin Laden, knows and takes a personal interest in your life.

I feel the need to point out that your second sentence there implies a pretty bleak worldview.  The entire point of the exercise is get away from that.  What does it benefit you, to hold that view?   I'm too old to cling to a view of the world as my enemy.  It's tiresome, and no goddamn fun.

Pull the wool over your own eyes - put perhaps choose the soft wool dyed pretty colours and knit into something nifty, not that crap-encrusted wool shammy you found in the garage.

One could just as easily make the argument that optimism benefits no one.  It's a matter of perspective.  Keep in mind the Sacred Chao, Shadowfurry... both are equally true, cynicism and optimism, and both are equally ridiculous.  If you favour one view you ignore the bigger picture, and to quote Bernard Jaffe: "You don't want to miss out on the big picture, do you?"

Actually, my point is that optimism benefits me.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not stupidly optimistic, and I do enjoy cynicism - it can be pretty damn funny, the Book of the Subgenius is fair evidence of that.  But too frequently it seems that I see people that let it dominate their worldview and I just find that depressing, and really just not all that fun.  I understand that some people dig on that, and if that's their trip and they enjoy it more power to them.  I've found it doesn't work for me though.

[hooplala]

I'm probably not as cynical as I seem on the forum, except when I am... however, I come here mostly to blow off steam about things that piss me off.  Which I can see would make some people believe I am a cranky son of a bitch all the time.  If something thrills me I more or less keep it to myself, or share with my close friends and family.  Not sure why that is, but I would assume its at least somewhat similar with a lot of others on here...  Don't assume this is the entire picture.

[shadowfurry23]

As stated above and by BAWHEED and I, it certainly isn't the view of Eris presented in the book for which this site is named.  It seems to borrow more from the classical Greek idea of Eris, but there's no good reason to choose that view over the other.

Are you perhaps a victim of indigestion?

This too is my problem with BIP - there's very little joy in it.  Hill and Thornley were clowns, pointing out the absurdity of life in a fun way, and that for me is a large part of the point of Discordianism.  "The Enlightened Take Things Lightly."  Cynicism is easy, and pervasive in our culture, and frankly I'm kinda sick of it.  It benefits no one - even the cynic who uses it as a shield is only admitting the crappiness of life and using their cynicism as a shield against it.

Ditch the shield, and instead take up the sword.

Oh, I see.  The problem is our view of Eris (insomuch as I can speak for the other members of the forum or indeed claim we share a common conception which in all likelihood we do not) is badwrong.  We should adhere to your vision of Eris because it is doubleplus good, even though as you yourself admit, "there is no good reason to choose [one] view over another".

Well if there is no good reason, why choose it?

Perhaps some of us prefer our view of Eris?  I came to Discordianism via my interest in Greek mythology and worldview.  I know enough about the Greek social and religious views of the time to converse with academics who specialize in the period.  I know historically that my viewpoint has more validity than other interpretations and I prefer a harsh truth to a comforting lie.

The Universe is struggle and conflict, generated by independent agents with flawed understandings of their world and especially those inhabit it.  Change is the only Universal constant, and those who deny it will get smashed upon the jagged rocks of History, or else stagnate into irrelevance on the shore.  But if you know the waves are coming, and something of the sea, you can ride the crest instead.

I laugh because the world is both tragedy and comedy, for someone with perspective. 

What you are suggesting is sticking your head in the sand with a pacifier and soothing balms about how the Universe works.  Well if the Universe loves me so fucking much, why am I £20,000 in debt and unemployed for the last 6 months?  Could it be, in fact, that such beliefs are little more than pallitatives for those who have reached a certain level of comfort and satisfaction in life and wish to wall themselves off from the harsh existence of others, should it affect their mood too much and spoil their feelings of contentment?  I don't know, but its certainly one explanation, and sounds plausible.

Your "sword" is only another shield, that of ignorance.  I stare my life in the face, without crutches, and weather it, because I know the struggle to survive improves, and that which does not kill me makes me stronger (or leaves me crippled, but lets save that argument for another time).  I have an acute sense of black humour, the sort that only people who live on the edge of ruin truly appreciate.  Maybe its not a humour to your liking, but it certainly exists, and I have laughed harder in the past year than at any other time in my life.  The jokes are funnier and the humour more acute, with this kind of lifestyle.

Incidentally, the argument "well it was like that in TEH BOOK" wont hold much water here.

You are certainly free to live the way you choose, and how you see most fit.  But I don't see why the rest of us should have to put up with your complaining that we are badwrong cynical Discordians.  Because if you really want to down that road, the above is only a taster of what is to come.

  Wow, pretty defensive there Cain.

  I'm not telling you how to live your life, just telling you how I choose to live mine, and suggesting that it might be beneficial to try it.  By doing so I'm also trying to make you question your assumptions about the world.

I find a significant hilarity that you are giving more credit to the Greek conception of Eris than the one in the PD, and claim that your viewpoint "has more historical validity".     Who the fuck cares?  The interpretations of some long-dead storytellers about a goddess are more valid than the inspirations and interpretations of some more recent ones?  Their version is the truth, and mine a comforting lie?   REALLY?

Like many, you confuse optimism with blindness, and say that I wish to 'wall myself off from existence' - I find this simply tragic, and nothing could be further from the truth.  You're screaming at me "THE WORLD SUCKS YOU KNOW!  IT DOES! YOU KNOW IT DOES!" and all I can do is shake my head sadly.  If you want to say the world sucks, go ahead, but don't expect me to buy it - that's just your opinion.  What I'm asking you is, what good does it do you to have that opinion?  If another opinion would do you more good, why not hold that one instead?

My shit job is ass - it was meant to be temporary and here I am more than a year later still doing the fucking thing, the pay is terrible and my search for a new job has been depressing to say the least.  I'm barely staying afloat and money is a source of massive stress.  My son is autistic, and will probably never communicate with me on the level I wish he would. My wife and I are having significant relationship issues, and yeah, it fucking sucks.  I could be cynical and down about it and work to make it better, or I could be optimistic and hopeful about it and work to make it better.  I'm not hiding from anything, despite your fervent desire to believe that I am because it reinforces your worldview.  Fuck that.

  Dude, I don't think you're badwrong, and I don't think THE BOOK has to be the Truth - but it can be.  Why the hell not?

[shadowfurry23]

  To simplify:

Q:

Well if there is no good reason, why choose it?

A: For the lulz.

[Cain]

Sorry, who is trying to universalize their argument here?

Oh, thats right, its you.

I'm saying people should be free to believe what I want, and this is what I prefer.  You're the one going around suggesting (in a passive-aggressive manner) that people who don't believe what you do are bleak, depressive and wrong.

Oh, and you have the audacity to put words in my mouth and tell me what I am thinking.  Incorrectly, I might add, though anyone with any sort of reading comprehension already knows that.

Maybe you should learn how to have a proper argument before you hit the "submit" button.  Or just make shit up and get ridiculed for it, its your choice.

[hooplala]

 

[Cain]

 But too frequently it seems that I see people that let it dominate their worldview and I just find that depressing, and really just not all that fun.

Hey.

Why do I give a damn what depresses you?  I didn't realize my purpose here was to fulfill your emotional desires.

Why do you want people to act only as you like, SF23?

[shadowfurry23]

Sorry, who is trying to universalize their argument here?

Oh, thats right, its you.

I'm saying people should be free to believe what I want, and this is what I prefer.  You're the one going around suggesting (in a passive-aggressive manner) that people who don't believe what you do are bleak, depressive and wrong.

Oh, and you have the audacity to put words in my mouth and tell me what I am thinking.  Incorrectly, I might add, though anyone with any sort of reading comprehension already knows that.

Maybe you should learn how to have a proper argument before you hit the "submit" button.  Or just make shit up and get ridiculed for it, its your choice.

Nah, I'm saying that I think your worldview is wrong for me.  I'm genuinely unsure why you think I'm trying to force anything on you - all I'm doing is offering.  To be fair my initial response to you was somewhat harsh, and I apologize for that, particularly if you felt I was putting words in your mouth.  As I said before above, if it works for you, awesome, go for it. 

Why do I give a damn what depresses you?  I didn't realize my purpose here was to fulfill your emotional desires.

Well, now you know.   

Why do you want people to act only as you like, SF23?

I don't want everyone to act only like me - that'd be boring.  I think its a fun act though, so I'm presenting people with a tool to use.  If you find it useful, great.  If you don't, that's fine too.  Whatever floats your boat.

(edited to remove a duplicate word - dammit i still need to make some tea)

[Cain]

I wasn't the one who came out batting with insulting remarks about another person's worldview.  In fact, my first comment aside, I decided to ignore this thread precisely because its not my sort of thing.  That was, until you started preaching about cynical Discordians to Nigel and GA.

Here is a little lesson for you: you can believe whatever crazy shit you want about the Universe.  No, really, go ahead.  Its no skin off my nose.  But I value having an effect on the world, and that means implicitly understanding how it works, down to the smallest detail.  And you can believe the Universe loves you and that Eris just has a bad repuation...but we both know that doesn't tally up to anything objective.  The more you remove yourself from an understanding of the world grounded in facts, the less effective your actions are, and the more you open yourself up to other sorts of ungrounded beliefs.  Sure, they may be "useful" in that they cause you certain emotional states or bring about a sense of contentment.  But they're not much good beyond that.

Of course, if you have no interest in having any sort of effect on your world, then that too is fine.  Again, your choice.  However I like to be active and engaged, and that means knowing the sort of things which are entirely and absolutely incompatible with your worldview.  And so, I reject it.

[shadowfurry23]

I wasn't the one who came out batting with insulting remarks about another person's worldview.  In fact, my first comment aside, I decided to ignore this thread precisely because its not my sort of thing.  That was, until you started preaching about cynical Discordians to Nigel and GA.

Here is a little lesson for you: you can believe whatever crazy shit you want about the Universe.  No, really, go ahead.  Its no skin off my nose.  But I value having an effect on the world, and that means implicitly understanding how it works, down to the smallest detail.  And you can believe the Universe loves you and that Eris just has a bad repuation...but we both know that doesn't tally up to anything objective.  The more you remove yourself from an understanding of the world grounded in facts, the less effective your actions are, and the more you open yourself up to other sorts of ungrounded beliefs.  Sure, they may be "useful" in that they cause you certain emotional states or bring about a sense of contentment.  But they're not much good beyond that.

Of course, if you have no interest in having any sort of effect on your world, then that too is fine.  Again, your choice.  However I like to be active and engaged, and that means knowing the sort of things which are entirely and absolutely incompatible with your worldview.  And so, I reject it.

Ah, now we're getting to the meat of it.

I am unsure how the belief I laid out is incompatible with being active or engaged - in fact I tend to think the opposite.  I never stated or claimed that it added up to anything objective, only that it is useful to me (and potentially others, which is my motivation for posting it here).  A sense of contentment was part of the point.

However, contentment != complacency.

Which things that I laid out are you thinking are incompatible with being active and engaged?   It's an important point, and I'd appreciate elucidation on it.

(edited for spelling, again.  goddamn it the preview button is there for a reason.  sigh)

[Cain]

No, you're misreading me again.  I said if you have no interest in being effective that is your issue.  If you hold fundamentally false beliefs about the world, then you will not be effective in what you set out to achieve, unless your actions are relating to your own perception and delusions.  Your worldview is not incompatible with action, it is incompatible with actually achieving goals beyond the ones mentioned above.

[shadowfurry23]

No, you're misreading me again.  I said if you have no interest in being effective that is your issue.  If you hold fundamentally false beliefs about the world, then you will not be effective in what you set out to achieve, unless your actions are relating to your own perception and delusions.  Your worldview is not incompatible with action, it is incompatible with actually achieving goals beyond the ones mentioned above.

Hm.

a) What belief did I detail that was fundamentally false?

b) Why are the beliefs I laid out incompatible with with achieving goals beyond the ones mentioned above? 

Heh.  I expected to be challenged when I posted this, heck that was part of the reason I posted it.  I'm rather enjoying the give and take with Cain and hope that he is too.

[hooplala]

As am I.