DISCORDIANISM: NO SUCH THING

[hooplala]

I hadn't heard that before, it's something to chew on.  However, saying it much after the fact doesn't lend it a ton of credit for me... I still can't find a contemporary source for the name.  As cool as Krassner is (and was) he doesn't seem to feature large in a lot of the Yippie writings, hell, he wasn't even one of the Chicago Seven.

But, I can't rule it out, so thank you for finding that. 

[AFK]

There are lots of murders in the US because, as a society, we tend to be spoiled and selfish. Murder often appears to have one of these as a underlying cause, IMO.

more spoiled and selfish than those other places? really?

No.  It just gets more coverage.  I really think this "The US is worser than everyone else" is pissing up a flagpole.  I'm not saying the US citizenry doesn't have its faults, it certainly does.  But it seems ridiculous to think all of the other tribes of monkeys somehow are more insulated from the same penchants to suck and fail. 

[singer]

This data makes it look almost as though the countries with the highest per capita rates of homicide are also countries with fairly active criminal organzations... so maybe it's the countries that have the most "murder business" in them have the highest rates of murder... and not that the citizens are somehow less evolved than countries that have fewer murder business interests operating in their boundaries?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21670/Crime-Statistics-Murders

[Jenne]

So how would you change that? 

Have you seen The American Drug War:  The Last White Hope in America, RWHN?  I think it's a great statement to how the decriminalization of drugs in America is something that's actively worked against by corporate America (and hence Big Gov).

Not picking on you, Dude, just making conversation and introducing the movie.  It has very few suggestions (other than legalize pot and make profit/taxes) besides the de-criminalization of using drugs.

[AFK]

So how would you change that? 

Have you seen The American Drug War:  The Last White Hope in America, RWHN?  I think it's a great statement to how the decriminalization of drugs in America is something that's actively worked against by corporate America (and hence Big Gov).

Not picking on you, Dude, just making conversation and introducing the movie.  It has very few suggestions (other than legalize pot and make profit/taxes) besides the de-criminalization of using drugs.

Can't say that I have.  But, I will look into it, sounds interesting.  I have no doubts that there are corporate interests at play agains the decriminalization of drugs, particularily marijuana.  I'm sure there are pharmaceutical companies worried that it might supplant some of their products in terms of pain management.  The tobacco industry is also probably somewhat resistant, though I would think if marijuana were legal, they'd look to incorporate it into their products. 

My angle with substance use, of course, focuses primarily on adolescents.  If I could somehow magically be assured that legalizing pot for adults would not impact adolescents, I'd have no issues with it.  Adults should, in theory, be able to make adult decisions.  But, my experience gives me the tingling sensation that eliminating the legal barrier to marijuana, for adults, will make it even easier for kids to get.

I know, I know, it's already crazy easy for a kid to get pot if he/she wants it.  But the fact is, the legal barrier DOES keep some kids from trying pot.  So, I guess, in my mind, I'd like to protect those kids for as long as possible. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

So how would you change that? 

Have you seen The American Drug War:  The Last White Hope in America, RWHN?  I think it's a great statement to how the decriminalization of drugs in America is something that's actively worked against by corporate America (and hence Big Gov).

Not picking on you, Dude, just making conversation and introducing the movie.  It has very few suggestions (other than legalize pot and make profit/taxes) besides the de-criminalization of using drugs.

Can't say that I have.  But, I will look into it, sounds interesting.  I have no doubts that there are corporate interests at play agains the decriminalization of drugs, particularily marijuana.  I'm sure there are pharmaceutical companies worried that it might supplant some of their products in terms of pain management.  The tobacco industry is also probably somewhat resistant, though I would think if marijuana were legal, they'd look to incorporate it into their products. 

My angle with substance use, of course, focuses primarily on adolescents.  If I could somehow magically be assured that legalizing pot for adults would not impact adolescents, I'd have no issues with it.  Adults should, in theory, be able to make adult decisions.  But, my experience gives me the tingling sensation that eliminating the legal barrier to marijuana, for adults, will make it even easier for kids to get.

I know, I know, it's already crazy easy for a kid to get pot if he/she wants it.  But the fact is, the legal barrier DOES keep some kids from trying pot.  So, I guess, in my mind, I'd like to protect those kids for as long as possible. 

I know how easily statistics can be manipulated, but I thought that a recent WHO study found that 20some% of teens in Amsterdam smoked while 40some% of teens in the US smoked.

How much credence do you give to the argument that most kids try it or abuse it because its illegal?

[Jenne]

So how would you change that? 

Have you seen The American Drug War:  The Last White Hope in America, RWHN?  I think it's a great statement to how the decriminalization of drugs in America is something that's actively worked against by corporate America (and hence Big Gov).

Not picking on you, Dude, just making conversation and introducing the movie.  It has very few suggestions (other than legalize pot and make profit/taxes) besides the de-criminalization of using drugs.

Can't say that I have.  But, I will look into it, sounds interesting.  I have no doubts that there are corporate interests at play agains the decriminalization of drugs, particularily marijuana.  I'm sure there are pharmaceutical companies worried that it might supplant some of their products in terms of pain management.  The tobacco industry is also probably somewhat resistant, though I would think if marijuana were legal, they'd look to incorporate it into their products. 

My angle with substance use, of course, focuses primarily on adolescents.  If I could somehow magically be assured that legalizing pot for adults would not impact adolescents, I'd have no issues with it.  Adults should, in theory, be able to make adult decisions.  But, my experience gives me the tingling sensation that eliminating the legal barrier to marijuana, for adults, will make it even easier for kids to get.

I know, I know, it's already crazy easy for a kid to get pot if he/she wants it.  But the fact is, the legal barrier DOES keep some kids from trying pot.  So, I guess, in my mind, I'd like to protect those kids for as long as possible. 

I tend to agree about the adolescent drug use, I'm wondering after seeing this documentary if de-criminalizing it would make the numbers go up or down.  Rata's assertion about Amsterdam teens is a valid one, but comparing us to the Dutch is a stretch when you take into account American hang ups with drug use in general.

One thing that struck me was how the Dutch treat ALL drugs--anyone who does ANYTHING to excess is a junkie--whether that be tobacco, alcohol OR drugs of any kind.  Very interesting take.

Anyway, it's worth a looksee, to see how manipulatable we are as a society, and how the population in general is controlled through PRIVATE prisons vis a vis illegal drug use.  It's very disgusting, really...where kids come into the mix is probably somewhere down the line from solving the domestic violence and poverty issue...

[AFK]

I know how easily statistics can be manipulated, but I thought that a recent WHO study found that 20some% of teens in Amsterdam smoked while 40some% of teens in the US smoked.

How much credence do you give to the argument that most kids try it or abuse it because its illegal?

What question was asked?  Typically, when we evaluate substance use we will ask if they have ever used, and if so how many times they have used.  And then we will ask if they'ev used in the past 30 days, past week.  That way you can "weed" out the experimenters from the regular users.  

As far as using it because it is illegal.  Of course some will experiment with it out of some form of rebellion.  Teens by their nature are risk-takers, of course.  However, I believe there is a firmer link between availability and use.  Just look at the recent trend in Rx drug abuse.  A lot of that comes from kids raiding Grandma's medicine cabinet, or sneaking a couple of pills out of their Mom's bottle of pain meds, or snagging a couple of pills from a friend at school.  It's because it's there.  

[Jenne]

I know how easily statistics can be manipulated, but I thought that a recent WHO study found that 20some% of teens in Amsterdam smoked while 40some% of teens in the US smoked.

How much credence do you give to the argument that most kids try it or abuse it because its illegal?

What question was asked?  Typically, when we evaluate substance use we will ask if they have ever used, and if so how many times they have used.  And then we will ask if they'ev used in the past 30 days, past week.  That way you can "weed" out the experimenters from the regular users.  

As far as using it because it is illegal.  Of course some will experiment with it out of some form of rebellion.  Teens by their nature are risk-takers, of course.  However, I believe there is a firmer link between availability and use.  Just look at the recent trend in Rx drug abuse.  A lot of that comes from kids raiding Grandma's medicine cabinet, or sneaking a couple of pills out of their Mom's bottle of pain meds, or snagging a couple of pills from a friend at school.  It's because it's there.  

What's the stats on poor kids in jail for drug use and richer kids, I'm wondering?  This documentary seemed to focus on the prevalence of minority kids stuck in the poverty/gang/drug rut and not the prescription drug route (which I have always seen typified as the white, suburban one).

[AFK]

What's the stats on poor kids in jail for drug use and richer kids, I'm wondering?  This documentary seemed to focus on the prevalence of minority kids stuck in the poverty/gang/drug rut and not the prescription drug route (which I have always seen typified as the white, suburban one).

It's hard to gauge here in Maine because we are mostly white (whitest state in the US) and mostly poor.  However, we do have a drug court system here in Maine, and a fairly strong and active one in the two most populated counties of the state.  Generally, if they aren't a violent offender, or have some other long rap sheet, the judges will work to find some alternative to jail time.  So, some poor kid caught with a joint or two isn't going to end up in jail.  He will be offered a chance to go through the drug court system.  Typically, what that entails is some community service and treatment.  And the great thing in our state is that we have a pot of money (for now) from which kids with no insurance can dip into to get treatment. 

Of course, a kid can always refuse that option, but the drug courts will really work hard to avoid that outcome.  I think this is a model that can actually work to improve the "War on Drugs".  I firmly believe the answer is using law enforcement and the justice system in a positive and constructive manner to get kids help and get them back on track. 

As for the rich kids, it's interesting.  I did a focus group with some people in one of the county jails.  I asked them about rich vs. poor, and basically the sentiment was, "Well the rich kids can afford the good stuff." 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I asked them about rich vs. poor, and basically the sentiment was, "Well the rich kids can afford the good stuff." 

TROOF, Nugget is almost 3x as expensive as middies these days... if you can even find it.

Stupid War on Drugs, propping up the drugdealer/industrial complex!

[AFK]

Yeah but that would exist if drugs were legal too.

It would be like MP3 players.

The rich kids can afford the IPODS, the poor kids are stuck with some Audiovox piece of shit. 

I also have to say, of all the schools I work with, the one that has one of the worst drug and alcohol problems right now, is also the one located in one of the richest towns of the state.  though, to be fair, one of the other schools with a big problem is in a dirt poor area where everyone is bused in from two towns over. 

[Jenne]

I think kids and drugs are like kids and sex--education about consequences and letting them know someone out there gives a flying fuck about what they are doing to themselves and each other goes a long way to preventing dumb mistakes they  make at this age.  Be that as it may..."The War on Drugs" is a joke once you find out how much war actually brought drugs here, through the CIA, through the police channels.  The justice system is now beholden to these private jailing companies (like Wakenhut), so I don't trust it within an inch of my life.

But then once in a while you get a libertarian judge like the guy in Orange County, CA who believes that jailing drug offenders just creates more crime and doesn't solve anything but overcrowds our jails.

The War on Drugs is creating the unsafe and disgusting scenario that the CA jail and prison system is currently listing under.  It sways from side to side with its burden of millions that it simply cannot hold without people dying of sepsis.  The usual tactic is to farm the prisoners out to the private jails, who spend less money on them than the state and federal systems do, but no one complains because of the dividends.

Marijuana usage is the sad tragedy in this horrormirthy dilemma--as it's classified in a completely political manner and has no real evil attached to it other than the "gateway" bullshit--I call bullshit because really, the most dangerous gateway is whatever your parents are using.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yeah but that would exist if drugs were legal too.

It would be like MP3 players.

The rich kids can afford the IPODS, the poor kids are stuck with some Audiovox piece of shit. 

I also have to say, of all the schools I work with, the one that has one of the worst drug and alcohol problems right now, is also the one located in one of the richest towns of the state.  though, to be fair, one of the other schools with a big problem is in a dirt poor area where everyone is bused in from two towns over. 

Well, if it weren't illegal the poor kids could grow their own (the new LED panels make it cheap)


I'm not surprised that the rich kids and poor kids almost equally have issues, I'd be interested to see if there's a noted preference based on family income (pot vs E vs LSD vs Cocaine vs Meth etc). That is, are they hitting the same stuff, just differentiated in quality, or are they on completely different drugs?

[Jenne]

I bet that depends on a lot of factors, Rata--like what's available in each environment (as in, in So Cal, we get a lot of Mexican Pot) and what the price ceiling would be due to socio-economic strata.