The Black Iron DUNGEON vs the Black Iron PRISON

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

Yes, well congratulations on totally ignoring my explanation and making up your own fucking definitions, you pair of dipshits.

If you're going to riff on my terminlogy and not even bother to try and engage with the ideas I associated with them, start your own threads, and stop filling mine with bullshit.

I was attempting to refine the ideas you introduced. Specifically, the interplay between the BIP and the BID. The self is in both simultaneously, but they aren't seperate spheres. If the BIP is social and the BID is physical/biological, then each has a level of control and dependency on the other. Social constraints can prevent one from fixing body limitations, or actually actively limit the body (the stigma of abortion may cause one to go through pregnancy, or the 'glory of war' may cause someone to get their legs blown off), but can also encourage the modification of the body positively or discourage negative modification (an amputee may be convinced to use a better prosthesis because it looks more realistic, and social stigma may prevent someone from drilling a hole in their head or driving nails through their palms if they might otherwise be inclined for whatever reason). In the same way, your biological limitations modify your social limitations by modifying the social interactions that you engage in.

[Template]

Yes, well congratulations on totally ignoring my explanation and making up your own fucking definitions, you pair of dipshits.

If you're going to riff on my terminlogy and not even bother to try and engage with the ideas I associated with them, start your own threads, and stop filling mine with bullshit.

Who, me?

I did miss your second post the first time I read this thread, I suspect.  The particle/wave business.  I'd like to be able to put both into a single world (of sorts) so that I can examine them at the same time.

You know, make an evocative model, then interact with it.  Maybe it's the wrong approach, but my level of interest and dedication doesn't allow me to handle jargon at the level I handle metaphor at this time.

What I hear in this thread:
* We want to re-shape or expand BIP-space to talk about physical/sensory-sensual limitations AND about social/conceptualization limits.
* Cain suggests that we could represent the two worlds through different forms of imprisonment.
* I don't want to treat physical limitations as imprisonment--it implies a dungeon-builder, but that doesn't bother me much.
** I like the "desert" image more and more.  It's full of unuseable stuff, most of which we can't distinguish at all.  We die if we stay out there too long.
* I stopped paying attention for a while.

On further reflection, the physical-limitations aspect might want a distinctive name, such as the Desert Outpost.  I forgot to reference Borges's unsolveable labyrinth earlier--sorry about that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Kings_and_the_Two_Labyrinths
http://the-labyrinth.blogspot.com/2004/06/two-labyrinths_26.html

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

So, to spur discussion and since Cain has provided us with such a good metaphor for discussing the physical/social differences...

Is the physical body a limitation?

First, we must examine this in the context of a given worldview.

If the person has a Transcendental/Spiritual view of existence, then they probably consider the physical body to be a very strong limitation. Most of these models of existence focus on Transcending the physical body after death, to experience the Real (Heaven, Elysium Fields,  Nirvana, Happy Hunting Grounds whatever).

If the person has a Materialistic/Atheistic view of existence, then the physical body isn't a limitation... it simply is. That is, we 'experience' things BECAUSE we have a physical body, not in spite of having a physical body.

Magical Practitioners or Animists might well state that there is no distinction between the Physical and everything else. Magic allows changes in the individuals existence... the physical, psychological, or perceptive nature of those changes is immaterial. The changes are measured by their usefulness to the magician, not by the category the magician perceives he's made a change in.

So, without trying to argue Wrong or Right or anything else... I am curious as to opinions on this line of thinking.

Is the physical body with its neurological system a limit or prison? If so, what is it limiting or imprisoning?

Obviously these are all metaphors, and Cain's specific comparison here is the idea of Social systems versus non-social systems which I find a very useful point to include in the concepts of the BiP. Please don't take this as asshole criticism, I'm just hoping to spawn more discussion.

In  Angel Tech, Antero has a small rant about philosophies that promote the hatred of one's body by creating a false dichotomy between  the physical and the spiritual, rather than considering it as a composite. Without our limited neurological system, would our experiences be less restrictive, or nonexistent?

If the dungeon is our physical body/neurology... what happens when 100 Knights show up to liberate King Richard the Lionhearted, and 'free' me from the dungeon at the same time?

I mean, liberation from a dungeon sounds good... liberation from my body and brain... maybe not so much.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

The BIP can't be escaped from. Why should the BID be any easier? You can modify your BIP, but it's your thinking aspects (who are prisoners in the BIP) that hold the most control over the form of the BID. Right?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The BIP can't be escaped from.

Why not?

Why should the BID be any easier?

I don't think anyone is arguing that it would be easier, or even possible.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

Maybe I'm phrasing myself wrong here.

If you extend or amputate your senses or capabilities, you use your mind to do so. In this way, social limitations and existing cultural programs can influence which senses and capabilites should be modified and in what ways. Becoming aware of one's presence in the BIP can allow one to 'escape' but escape never really ends, does it? No matter where you go, you run the risk of ending up back in the BIP and not even realizing. At the same time, jailbreaking the BIP allows you to attend to the limits of the BID in ways that would otherwise not be allowed, one way or another. Taboo is part of the BIP, but affects the BID. The same is true of certain "positive impulses"*, for instance encouraging promiscuity or self-flaggelation or playing with binoculars.

So, by modding the BIP you enable greater freedom in modding the BID, however, the BIP functions in many cases to prevent mods on the BID that would make modding the BIP easier, since this can cause instability in culture.

* By positive impulses, I mean things that one is encouraged to do one way or another by either an acceptance or rejection of imposed culture or values. This is to contrast negative impulses, which are things that one is encouraged not to do by the same factors.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Maybe I'm phrasing myself wrong here.

If you extend or amputate your senses or capabilities, you use your mind to do so. In this way, social limitations and existing cultural programs can influence which senses and capabilites should be modified and in what ways. Becoming aware of one's presence in the BIP can allow one to 'escape' but escape never really ends, does it? No matter where you go, you run the risk of ending up back in the BIP and not even realizing.

I agree with this, we can escape but recidivist rates for the BiP are astronomical

At the same time, jailbreaking the BIP allows you to attend to the limits of the BID in ways that would otherwise not be allowed, one way or another. Taboo is part of the BIP, but affects the BID. The same is true of certain "positive impulses"*, for instance encouraging promiscuity or self-flaggelation or playing with binoculars.

I disagree. Promiscuity, self-flaggelation and binoculars all modify our BiP (or GSP if we're currently on the lam). I don't see how those would change the physical constraints of the individual (the BiD).

So, by modding the BIP you enable greater freedom in modding the BID, however, the BIP functions in many cases to prevent mods on the BID that would make modding the BIP easier, since this can cause instability in culture.

maybe first we should get a common ground on how we're interpreting Cain's post. I took this as "BiP = Social/Psychological/Philosophical/Programming/Reality Tunnel/Reality Grid/etc." and "BiD = Physical limitations of humans".

How did you interpret it?

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

I interpreted it similarly, but I'm mostly riffing on the idea that the BID can be extended and modified through technology. Some technology that would otherwise change your physical limits (including both senses and actions) can not be utilized due to social, environmental, cultural, economic, or reality grid reasons. These would fall under the BIP. So we can say that the BIP determines the limits of the BID in some cases. Now, the distinction gets slightly murky, so I'll try to feign clarity by totally oversimplifying and saying that while the BID is physical limitations of the senses and actions, the BIP is mental limitations which affect the will to sense and the will to act. These are in a constant loop, however, the BID can be extended if and only if the BIP allows the BID to do things that will extend what the BID can do. In theory, one can jailbreak the BIP inside one's own head with no interaction with other people outside. The BID can only be modified -- made bigger or prettier or whatever -- and only if the BIP allows it. Once you jailbreak, not only do you remove the limitations in your thought, but by extension, you remove the limits in your will that would prevent you from modifying the BID in some particular ways.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Too many annoying metaphors

I think I'm gonna junk 'em all and just refer to me "self" and my "self-limitations".

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Too many annoying metaphors

I think I'm gonna junk 'em all and just refer to me "self" and my "self-limitations".

YOU NO FUN!

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I interpreted it similarly, but I'm mostly riffing on the idea that the BID can be extended and modified through technology. Some technology that would otherwise change your physical limits (including both senses and actions) can not be utilized due to social, environmental, cultural, economic, or reality grid reasons. These would fall under the BIP. So we can say that the BIP determines the limits of the BID in some cases. Now, the distinction gets slightly murky, so I'll try to feign clarity by totally oversimplifying and saying that while the BID is physical limitations of the senses and actions, the BIP is mental limitations which affect the will to sense and the will to act. These are in a constant loop, however, the BID can be extended if and only if the BIP allows the BID to do things that will extend what the BID can do. In theory, one can jailbreak the BIP inside one's own head with no interaction with other people outside. The BID can only be modified -- made bigger or prettier or whatever -- and only if the BIP allows it. Once you jailbreak, not only do you remove the limitations in your thought, but by extension, you remove the limits in your will that would prevent you from modifying the BID in some particular ways.

I think this is a good line of reasoning.

We can break out of the BiP, but always risk getting tossed back in the pokey if we aren't careful.
We can't break out of the BiD, but we can modify it ala Transhumanistic technology.

Hey Cain, what's your thoughts?

[Template]

I disagree. Promiscuity, self-flaggelation and binoculars all modify our BiP (or GSP if we're currently on the lam). I don't see how those would change the physical constraints of the individual (the BiD).
...

maybe first we should get a common ground on how we're interpreting Cain's post. I took this as "BiP = Social/Psychological/Philosophical/Programming/Reality Tunnel/Reality Grid/etc." and "BiD = Physical limitations of humans".

How did you interpret it?

What? 

Why does GSP make you free?  You make you free.  GSP or no.

That's why I set my BIP in a desert.  There are probably oases, but you'll have a hell of a time finding them.

[Scribbly]

So... I spent a lot of time after I read it, going around the Black Iron Dungeon in my head. It seems to me that Cain is making a very useful distinction, here. But... I still notice a lot of discussion about escaping. I don't think that was Cain's point; unless I'm missing something very fundamental, he only ever said change. Change is most certainly possible, but escape from either the Black Iron Prison, or the Black Iron Dungeon, would necessity a transformation so radical as to no longer identify as human. So. Unless we're going the transhumanist route (which I, personally, think is about as useful as waiting for Judgement Day), there doesn't seem to be much use in talking about escape.

The BIP is constructed of the confines on our thinking; linguistic, cultural, societal, and so on. These are all elements that can be modified through certain practices. For instance, RAW suggested the use of E-Prime to try and negotiate around some linguistic issues. Cultural and societal limitations can be combated to some extent by being aware of them. To what extent these can be eliminated is debatable. But. The BIP is more than just these elements, the prison is what we use to take data, and focus it into something meaningful. The information that our body receives is reinterpreted, and this is how we gain knowledge of the world. When we do this, whilst we can try to be aware of the limitations imposed on us by our brain, we can never fully escape them. And it may not even be useful to do so. Show me an apple, and I want to know that it is an apple. I don't want to get the 'raw' data, and know its atomic weight, the amount of energy contained within it, and so on and so forth. Because of the way we perceive the world, we don't see it in terms of 'things'. We see it in terms of 'ideas about things'. And that, whilst being a limitation, can also be useful.

The BID, however, is what gives us the prison. The dungeon being the sensory aparati that make up the tools we use to gain the data that is interpreted by our BIP into meaningful information. Modification of the BIP can take place on a far more cerebral level. Modification of the BID must, by necessity, take place on a more physical level.

Essentially, the BIP is all about how we draw the map. By having a more accurate BIP, we can make better use of the information we are getting to build a more accurate map of the territory, to a level which will be useful. The BID, however, is the paper and ink in this analogy. It is all the information about the territory that we can draw upon. To get more of that, we need to make far more fundamental changes to what we are; rather than a mental transformation, this requires a physical one, being modified as Cain suggested.

So... essentially, because the entire aim here (to gain accurate knowledge of our position within reality) isn't bound up entirely in either the BIP or the BID, it may not be enough, depending on how accurately we want to match our ideas about reality to the reality itself, to focus on purely mental and societal programming. We need to be aware of the limitations of the body, and be prepared to combat those as well.


... That's what I took away from it, anyway.

[LMNO]

Well said, uh... who the fuck are you, again?



I think the whole "jailbreak" side-trip comes from a badly-worded red herring in one of the early essays, and Rat's refusal to GET WITH THE PROGRAM.

Heh.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

So... I spent a lot of time after I read it, going around the Black Iron Dungeon in my head. It seems to me that Cain is making a very useful distinction, here. But... I still notice a lot of discussion about escaping. I don't think that was Cain's point; unless I'm missing something very fundamental, he only ever said change. Change is most certainly possible, but escape from either the Black Iron Prison, or the Black Iron Dungeon, would necessity a transformation so radical as to no longer identify as human. So. Unless we're going the transhumanist route (which I, personally, think is about as useful as waiting for Judgement Day), there doesn't seem to be much use in talking about escape.

The BIP is constructed of the confines on our thinking; linguistic, cultural, societal, and so on. These are all elements that can be modified through certain practices. For instance, RAW suggested the use of E-Prime to try and negotiate around some linguistic issues. Cultural and societal limitations can be combated to some extent by being aware of them. To what extent these can be eliminated is debatable. But. The BIP is more than just these elements, the prison is what we use to take data, and focus it into something meaningful. The information that our body receives is reinterpreted, and this is how we gain knowledge of the world. When we do this, whilst we can try to be aware of the limitations imposed on us by our brain, we can never fully escape them. And it may not even be useful to do so. Show me an apple, and I want to know that it is an apple. I don't want to get the 'raw' data, and know its atomic weight, the amount of energy contained within it, and so on and so forth. Because of the way we perceive the world, we don't see it in terms of 'things'. We see it in terms of 'ideas about things'. And that, whilst being a limitation, can also be useful.

The BID, however, is what gives us the prison. The dungeon being the sensory aparati that make up the tools we use to gain the data that is interpreted by our BIP into meaningful information. Modification of the BIP can take place on a far more cerebral level. Modification of the BID must, by necessity, take place on a more physical level.

Essentially, the BIP is all about how we draw the map. By having a more accurate BIP, we can make better use of the information we are getting to build a more accurate map of the territory, to a level which will be useful. The BID, however, is the paper and ink in this analogy. It is all the information about the territory that we can draw upon. To get more of that, we need to make far more fundamental changes to what we are; rather than a mental transformation, this requires a physical one, being modified as Cain suggested.

So... essentially, because the entire aim here (to gain accurate knowledge of our position within reality) isn't bound up entirely in either the BIP or the BID, it may not be enough, depending on how accurately we want to match our ideas about reality to the reality itself, to focus on purely mental and societal programming. We need to be aware of the limitations of the body, and be prepared to combat those as well.


... That's what I took away from it, anyway.

Ay, yer late to the party here... we currently have a lovely debate over just these topics.

escape from either the Black Iron Prison, or the Black Iron Dungeon, would necessity a transformation so radical as to no longer identify as human

While some argue that the BiP is inescapable. I argue that it is a prison, only as long as we do not actively modify it. Once we begin to modify the reality we perceive... once we begin to metaprogram, re-imprint, apply consciousness modification... it is no longer a prison, for what prison allows you full control of your cell, your bars, your walls and the whole damned facility? There surely are limits to what we can perceive, limits put in place by biology and DNA... those, may be inescapable (ala the BiD). However, once we have control of our BiP, once we can modify our BiP, its no longer a prison, necessarily...

Thus is my contention.

Constraints and limits are not necessarily a prison. Some of the most freeing experiences a human can have involve constraints. If you climb to the top of Mt. Everest, you have to wear special clothes and masks and carry oxygen. Those are all constraints, but I wouldn't call the top of the world a prison. Those who get to see the bottom of the Marianas Trench, must do so in a tiny little cell... with only small windows to see through, constraints? Hell Yes. A Prison? Not by my estimation. The astronaut, the cosmonaut, the rich guy that paid for a trip into space... all of them had to deal with constraints, with restrictions, with limited visibility... but were they in prison? I say No.

Here we are, humans... who, as far as we can tell, must have human bodies to experience life. Until we find evidence otherwise, the ONLY WAY to experience the Greatest Adventure of All (existing and experiencing), we must have some constraints, just as the astronauts, argonauts and mountain climbers. We could choose to see those constraints as a Prison. Yet, if we're in control, if we can choose to modify our perception, if we can accept and reject constraints, based on their usefulness... then I argue we have escaped the Black Iron Prison. We always risk falling back into our old ways and being tossed back into the Prison, but for at least awhile, we can escape, I think.


EDIT: To come back to Cain's OP:

So Cain posits two kinds of 'constraints' the Prison, or a system of social constraints and a Dungeon, a system of constraints irrespective of other monkeys... ie a biological, neurological constraint.

Thus, 'transhumanists' would be aiming to break out of Cain's Dungeon... ie the biological constraints, not the Prison, that is, not the social constraints (though they are doing that as a side effect of their attempt to break out of the dungeon).

The human made and human enforced constraints are the ones that I see as mutable. That is we can 'escape' any social set of rules and replace it with different rules, or no rules at all. With no rules at all, we'll be pretty limited in what we can experience. Thus we accept more rules, in order to have more experiences.

the biological constraints, on the other hand... provide me with a conundrum. On the one hand, Cain makes good points with this Dungeon metaphor. Yet, on the other hand, I find the idea of "my biology=trap" seems too reminiscent of some body hating philosophies. "You're trapped in your sinful body", "You must transcend the mere physical", "The flesh is weak", "You got too many theatens".

If I look at this through a model wherein there is a spirit, or spiritual body, or energy body that exists outside of the physical... then perhaps this is true. Perhaps we are trapped in a physical body. Yet, if I don't consider the 'spirit' as separate from the body, then are these biological constraints a prison, or simply the necessary constraints to support my ability to experience life?

I concur fully that social, psychological and philosophical constraints that have been assimilated and imprinted into our reality can be a prison. People can get trapped in one perspective, or one small view of reality that they confuse for The Real Thing. It seems lie a great metaphor to say that they are seeing reality from a prison window with bars blocking out some bits.

However, once the individual has begun to reconstruct their prison at will. Once they abandon old reality concepts, in order to explore new ones... I no longer see them as trapped. Constrained, yes... but not trapped.

They could fall back into prison, they could get confused and think their new reality tunnel is THE REAL ONE. But, until that happens, the person doesn't seem imprisoned to me.