The Black Iron DUNGEON vs the Black Iron PRISON

[Scribbly]

Well said, uh... who the fuck are you, again?

Thanks! I'm Kai Wren. Been a long time since I was round these here parts, not that I contributed all that much when I was active 

Ay, yer late to the party here... we currently have a lovely debate over just these topics.

Yup... I can see that. So I figured I'd join in. I hope that isn't a problem.

While some argue that the BiP is inescapable. I argue that it is a prison, only as long as we do not actively modify it. Once we begin to modify the reality we perceive... once we begin to metaprogram, re-imprint, apply consciousness modification... it is no longer a prison, for what prison allows you full control of your cell, your bars, your walls and the whole damned facility? There surely are limits to what we can perceive, limits put in place by biology and DNA... those, may be inescapable (ala the BiD). However, once we have control of our BiP, once we can modify our BiP, its no longer a prison, necessarily...

I think you might be getting too caught up in the word 'prison'. At least, for what I take the prison to represent in the metaphor. I reckon my best thought on this was around ... here. Somewhere.  http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=13944.0

The trouble with it is, when you begin to modify what reality your are perceiving, to use the analogy in my last bit of actual writing on the subject above, you are getting a new set of 'lenses' through which to view the world. A new set of parameters via which you are experiencing life. This does not remove the fact that there are still limitations. My concern would be that by doing this, there is the very real risk that one forgets the whole point of the metaphor to begin with. As you say, you might redecorate your cell entirely. You might make it incredibly comfortable. You might, in fact, no longer believe it to be a prison.

And at that point, to follow the metaphor to its conclusion, you forget that it is a limitation, you forget that these barriers and predisposed assumptions about the way the world works exist, and the very problem of bias and misinterpretation due to an overconfidence that what you are perceiving is the Really Real Reality that you like the best and so is the only one that matters, sneaks back in the back door. The point of the prison, for the most part, appears to be that one becomes so caught up in it, one forgets it exists. Modifying it to your tastes doesn't change that threat, it only means that you exist in a more comfortable one. Not even one, I would argue, innately superior to the one of someone who never did this to begin with.

Constraints and limits are not necessarily a prison. Some of the most freeing experiences a human can have involve constraints. If you climb to the top of Mt. Everest, you have to wear special clothes and masks and carry oxygen. Those are all constraints, but I wouldn't call the top of the world a prison. Those who get to see the bottom of the Marianas Trench, must do so in a tiny little cell... with only small windows to see through, constraints? Hell Yes. A Prison? Not by my estimation. The astronaut, the cosmonaut, the rich guy that paid for a trip into space... all of them had to deal with constraints, with restrictions, with limited visibility... but were they in prison? I say No.

Here we are, humans... who, as far as we can tell, must have human bodies to experience life. Until we find evidence otherwise, the ONLY WAY to experience the Greatest Adventure of All (existing and experiencing), we must have some constraints, just as the astronauts, argonauts and mountain climbers. We could choose to see those constraints as a Prison. Yet, if we're in control, if we can choose to modify our perception, if we can accept and reject constraints, based on their usefulness... then I argue we have escaped the Black Iron Prison. We always risk falling back into our old ways and being tossed back into the Prison, but for at least awhile, we can escape, I think.

I'm afraid, again, that from my perspective you are getting too caught up in the negative connotations of the word 'prison.' The prison can be the nicest one in all reality, capable of allowing you to see all sorts of amazing things outside of the normal human experience. It is still a prison.

The original message that I believed the Black Iron Prison- and I fully admit, this may have changed in the year or so I've been out of touch with the project- was trying to get across, was that there is an amazing temptation to generalize your experiences across all of human understanding. When you use a tool- such as robotic assistance to allow you to see the bottom of the ocean- this is not the same thing as experiencing the bottom of the ocean directly. The limitations of the tools are still there. This may be a POSITIVE thing, but it is still, inescapably, a factor which must be taken into consideration when attempting to generalize your experience to other creatures. For instance; to take an extreme here, 'When I saw the bottom of the ocean, it was so incredibly dark that I was blind without a light! Therefore, all creatures that exist at the bottom of the ocean must need a light, or they are blind.'

But, these are more Dungeon-esque issues than Prison ones. The Prison is more along the lines of generalizing experiences. For instance, the way a radical feminist who believes all men are potential rapists sees the world, even in every day life, when they are walking down the street and taking note of people who pass her by, would be a radically different world to my own. The things that they would be more likely to pick up on, the immediate connotations that they receive upon seeing certain modes of dress or body language, would all be vastly, completely alien to the same experience I would have on the same day at the same place at the same time, even if I happened to be inhabiting their particular 'dungeon' somehow. One can try to escape from that, and attempt to be aware of the various biases and ways that their mind works. But to escape the very way that a human mind works, which is, it seems to me, to draw on past experience to try and predict future experiences, is quite an incredible proposition. And no matter how much re-imprinting, mind alteration, or otherwise one does... the very effects of those techniques simply bring in another, new, set of biases, preconceived notions, and assumptions which must be taken into account.

Outside of the prison... there is just another prison. That was one of the images I always liked to try and explain that.

So Cain posits two kinds of 'constraints' the Prison, or a system of social constraints and a Dungeon, a system of constraints irrespective of other monkeys... ie a biological, neurological constraint.

Thus, 'transhumanists' would be aiming to break out of Cain's Dungeon... ie the biological constraints, not the Prison, that is, not the social constraints (though they are doing that as a side effect of their attempt to break out of the dungeon).

Yes, true. Although I would argue that the biological and social constraints are linked. As Wilson points out, and this was the thing that actually got me into the whole concept all over again, seeing the world is not a purely physical activity. When we observe something, it is observed through a synthesis of our senses and our brain interpreting the raw data that is received.

Breaking out of the biological restraints necessitates an evolution of the Prison to encompass this new data; to use my lens metaphor, if the lens can't focus the light (if our minds can't interpret the data) then it is meaningless. Just raw noise, and likely discounted by the human brain.

The human made and human enforced constraints are the ones that I see as mutable. That is we can 'escape' any social set of rules and replace it with different rules, or no rules at all. With no rules at all, we'll be pretty limited in what we can experience. Thus we accept more rules, in order to have more experiences.

To some degree, perhaps. It is possible, I believe, to train the mind to accept new limitations. To see the world in a way less influenced by the constraints of the prison. I do not believe it is even possible to see the world with no limitations. To do so one would need to find some way of removing the tools used to observe the world, and yet still have knowledge of it. If you can see how to do that... I'd be very interested, but it seems like an insolvable problem to me.

the biological constraints, on the other hand... provide me with a conundrum. On the one hand, Cain makes good points with this Dungeon metaphor. Yet, on the other hand, I find the idea of "my biology=trap" seems too reminiscent of some body hating philosophies. "You're trapped in your sinful body", "You must transcend the mere physical", "The flesh is weak", "You got too many theatens". If I look at this through a model wherein there is a spirit, or spiritual body, or energy body that exists outside of the physical... then perhaps this is true. Perhaps we are trapped in a physical body. Yet, if I don't consider the 'spirit' as separate from the body, then are these biological constraints a prison, or simply the necessary constraints to support my ability to experience life?

I concur fully that social, psychological and philosophical constraints that have been assimilated and imprinted into our reality can be a prison. People can get trapped in one perspective, or one small view of reality that they confuse for The Real Thing. It seems lie a great metaphor to say that they are seeing reality from a prison window with bars blocking out some bits.

However, once the individual has begun to reconstruct their prison at will. Once they abandon old reality concepts, in order to explore new ones... I no longer see them as trapped. Constrained, yes... but not trapped.

They could fall back into prison, they could get confused and think their new reality tunnel is THE REAL ONE. But, until that happens, the person doesn't seem imprisoned to me.

Whilst I think I understand what you are saying... I still believe you may be placing too much on this concept of the prison (and the dungeon) as negative things. The prison and the dungeon do not, in themselves, have a normative value. They are neither good, nor bad, they simply are.

The spiritual side to this is something that I have not ever really considered. But, I think, it is pretty irrelevant to the discussion as a whole. The imagery used is of a prison and a dungeon because a prison has a social aspect, and a dungeon does not. Both, also, are limitations; constraints on the people who inhabit them. That is the extent to which I take the metaphor to be a useful one.

After that point, if one takes it too far, you risk being caught up in the words we are using to discuss the phenomena, rather than discussing the phenomena itself. There is, if you like, a prison that needs to be broken out of to discuss the prison; and that is breaking down the various connotations attached to the words themselves, before discussing it.

This turned out to be a ton longer than I was expecting, and probably a bit repetitive in places, but, I hope I got my point across.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yup... I can see that. So I figured I'd join in. I hope that isn't a problem.

Hell no

While some argue that the BiP is inescapable. I argue that it is a prison, only as long as we do not actively modify it. Once we begin to modify the reality we perceive... once we begin to metaprogram, re-imprint, apply consciousness modification... it is no longer a prison, for what prison allows you full control of your cell, your bars, your walls and the whole damned facility? There surely are limits to what we can perceive, limits put in place by biology and DNA... those, may be inescapable (ala the BiD). However, once we have control of our BiP, once we can modify our BiP, its no longer a prison, necessarily...

I think you might be getting too caught up in the word 'prison'. At least, for what I take the prison to represent in the metaphor. I reckon my best thought on this was around ... here. Somewhere.  http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=13944.0

It seems to me that many people go through existence with little or no thought as to the state of their Prison, their imprints, the influences and effects of the experiences in their lives. They, I think we can say are trapped... because we can posit a 'free' alternative. They can take control of their constraints and modify them as they Will. However, if we place all humans forever in a "prison" then I think we come very close to other systems that profess an eternal human state of damnation. I am far too optimistic to accept such a proposal (though I may be wrong to be so optimistic ).

I think your lenses provide a great metaphor, because they are not neurolinguistcly tied to existing concepts. When we hear the term 'Prison', our brain automatically has some association with what that word means. The term prison, includes the concept of "not Prison", yet if we consider the BiP to be the only and eternal state of humanity, then there is no OUT. If there is no OUT, then there is no Prison. We can use the term to just describe one aspect of one concept, but the term is already semantically associated with other assumption in our neurolinguistic system.

Consider the concepts usually implied with the term prison: There are guards, forcing you to do whatever, there are not really 'rights', the prisoner has no say in any aspect of their life... The prisoner has done something bad or wrong to find themselves there.... all of these terms are inextricably tied to the idea of 'Prison'. Yet these concepts, seem to me, a very dangerous line of thought if we apply them to the human condition.  It sounds like 'The Fall of Man' with less talking serpents and naked people.

The trouble with it is, when you begin to modify what reality your are perceiving, to use the analogy in my last bit of actual writing on the subject above, you are getting a new set of 'lenses' through which to view the world. A new set of parameters via which you are experiencing life. This does not remove the fact that there are still limitations. My concern would be that by doing this, there is the very real risk that one forgets the whole point of the metaphor to begin with. As you say, you might redecorate your cell entirely. You might make it incredibly comfortable. You might, in fact, no longer believe it to be a prison.

And herein lies the difference. I agree that we are getting a new 'set of lenses', new programs, parameters etc. And I agree that there are still limitations... but I consider those limitations to be constraints/limitations not 'prison', necessarily. A submarine may be a constraint, but its not a prison, is it?

And yes, there exists a risk that one might forget they are in prison. As I said, its always possible to end up back in the BiP. However, it seems like an inescapable prison might create a risk of pessimistic acceptance that one is trapped... "It doesn't matter if the curtains match the drapes... I'm in Prison!!!"

And at that point, to follow the metaphor to its conclusion, you forget that it is a limitation, you forget that these barriers and predisposed assumptions about the way the world works exist, and the very problem of bias and misinterpretation due to an overconfidence that what you are perceiving is the Really Real Reality that you like the best and so is the only one that matters, sneaks back in the back door. The point of the prison, for the most part, appears to be that one becomes so caught up in it, one forgets it exists. Modifying it to your tastes doesn't change that threat, it only means that you exist in a more comfortable one. Not even one, I would argue, innately superior to the one of someone who never did this to begin with.

Yes, but we have this risk no matter how we discuss the metaphor... we risk becoming complacent and say "I've changed my prison to look as I like it", or "I've escaped" or "I am a cabbage".  If one believes that they are forever trapped, then apathy or frustration could leave them as trapped (or worse) than before. If one believes that they escaped, then pride, apathy or comfort could trick them right back into the prison.

I'm afraid, again, that from my perspective you are getting too caught up in the negative connotations of the word 'prison.' The prison can be the nicest one in all reality, capable of allowing you to see all sorts of amazing things outside of the normal human experience. It is still a prison.

There are still constraints... I disagree that constraints = prison. Constraints can be part of a prison, but they are not the sole definition. Being held against your Will, having your Will denied all of these are implicit in the term prison.

The original message that I believed the Black Iron Prison- and I fully admit, this may have changed in the year or so I've been out of touch with the project- was trying to get across, was that there is an amazing temptation to generalize your experiences across all of human understanding. When you use a tool- such as robotic assistance to allow you to see the bottom of the ocean- this is not the same thing as experiencing the bottom of the ocean directly. The limitations of the tools are still there. This may be a POSITIVE thing, but it is still, inescapably, a factor which must be taken into consideration when attempting to generalize your experience to other creatures. For instance; to take an extreme here, 'When I saw the bottom of the ocean, it was so incredibly dark that I was blind without a light! Therefore, all creatures that exist at the bottom of the ocean must need a light, or they are blind.'

Well, that was sort of my point. We can never directly experience the bottom of the ocean or the top of Mt. Everest or Outer Space. The only way we can possibly experience these things is to choose to accept some constraints. Submarines, Space Ships, Oxygen Masks and Artic Clothing... are ALL constraints, they will ALL effect how a person experiences space/the ocean floor, the top of the world... BUT they aren't prisons... they provide the 'vehicle' from which we can explore. Just as our physical bodies, our neurological system provide the 'vehicle' from which we explore. That vehicle can be a prison, esp if the driver just sits on the side of the road for 70 years and then dies.

However, if the car driver drives...
then modifies it and flies,
then modifies it and dives,
then modifies it and modifies it
and modifies it till he dies

I think he's got something other than a prison.

Surely, if he were to spend the last 30 years orbiting the moon or sitting on the ocean floor... the vehicle would be a prison once again. But, if he doesn't stagnate... then I don't think its useful to call him trapped.

But, these are more Dungeon-esque issues than Prison ones. The Prison is more along the lines of generalizing experiences. For instance, the way a radical feminist who believes all men are potential rapists sees the world, even in every day life, when they are walking down the street and taking note of people who pass her by, would be a radically different world to my own. The things that they would be more likely to pick up on, the immediate connotations that they receive upon seeing certain modes of dress or body language, would all be vastly, completely alien to the same experience I would have on the same day at the same place at the same time, even if I happened to be inhabiting their particular 'dungeon' somehow. One can try to escape from that, and attempt to be aware of the various biases and ways that their mind works. But to escape the very way that a human mind works, which is, it seems to me, to draw on past experience to try and predict future experiences, is quite an incredible proposition. And no matter how much re-imprinting, mind alteration, or otherwise one does... the very effects of those techniques simply bring in another, new, set of biases, preconceived notions, and assumptions which must be taken into account.

I would disagree. The perception of dress and body language appear much more a part of someones Prison, rather than a dungeon. That is if I don't completely misunderstand where Cain was going with this. I would say the BiD might have much more to do with the physical limitations of the human body. That is, we are limited (no matter what imprints and beliefs we have) to some finite set of Information, ie the information that can be received and processed by the human neurological system. Like the Dungeon, ths isn't being guarded by a social agreement and people aren't being 'reformed'.... they are simply stuck with no recourse (unless Transhumanists are actually dead on).

Yes, true. Although I would argue that the biological and social constraints are linked. As Wilson points out, and this was the thing that actually got me into the whole concept all over again, seeing the world is not a purely physical activity. When we observe something, it is observed through a synthesis of our senses and our brain interpreting the raw data that is received.

Breaking out of the biological restraints necessitates an evolution of the Prison to encompass this new data; to use my lens metaphor, if the lens can't focus the light (if our minds can't interpret the data) then it is meaningless. Just raw noise, and likely discounted by the human brain.

Yes, I agree. Our physical and social constraints appear to be linked. Our social programming seems to often alter the processing of data from our sensory inputs. However, changes happen in the social programming, not the sensory input. So, if a girl is wearing a black miniskirt, its our imprints and social programming (BIP) that limit our perception to say "SLUT". Whereas our inability to see the infrared heat emanating from her body seems more a biological constraint ala BiD. We can escape the BiP and say "Girl in a miniskirt" instead of "Slut". Currently, we cannot tell our DNA to add a few extra rods and cones to cover the rest of the light frequencies in existence 

The human made and human enforced constraints are the ones that I see as mutable. That is we can 'escape' any social set of rules and replace it with different rules, or no rules at all. With no rules at all, we'll be pretty limited in what we can experience. Thus we accept more rules, in order to have more experiences.

To some degree, perhaps. It is possible, I believe, to train the mind to accept new limitations. To see the world in a way less influenced by the constraints of the prison. I do not believe it is even possible to see the world with no limitations. To do so one would need to find some way of removing the tools used to observe the world, and yet still have knowledge of it. If you can see how to do that... I'd be very interested, but it seems like an insolvable problem to me.

Note what I said... not that we can escape all limitations... That is we can 'escape' any social set of rules and replace it with different rules, or no rules at all. With no rules at all, we'll be pretty limited in what we can experience

Whilst I think I understand what you are saying... I still believe you may be placing too much on this concept of the prison (and the dungeon) as negative things. The prison and the dungeon do not, in themselves, have a normative value. They are neither good, nor bad, they simply are.

Yet, many people, upon reading the BiP say "this is negative". That's because Prison, in the English language anyway, is distinctly and directly associated with negative things.

Telling someone that its not negative because they can choose the wallpaper and matching carpet for their cell... doesn't seem to balance that out IMO. It also (and IMO more importantly) minimizes the difference between the person who has no idea that they aren't in complete control of Really Real Reality and the person who is actively modifying their perception of reality.

And in a nutshell, that's the debate LMNO and I have been having for aeons

I have a story about this, perhaps I'll post it today

[Scribbly]

It seems to me that many people go through existence with little or no thought as to the state of their Prison, their imprints, the influences and effects of the experiences in their lives. They, I think we can say are trapped... because we can posit a 'free' alternative. They can take control of their constraints and modify them as they Will. However, if we place all humans forever in a "prison" then I think we come very close to other systems that profess an eternal human state of damnation. I am far too optimistic to accept such a proposal (though I may be wrong to be so optimistic )

I can definitely agree with the first part of this. I suspect most people don't have the time or inclination to think about these sort of subjects. From personal experience, issues like this tend to draw glassy-eyed syndrome, even with students on my course (political science). One of my roommates is a biologist, and another a mathematician... attempting to discuss this (Hey! They asked!) just resulted in a lot of scratched heads and then a 'Yeah, lets watch TV.'

But. That said. My take on the prison is a lot less bleak than yours... to me, the Black Iron Prison needs to sound foreboding, and like a threat. At the time, it was being written with the intent that if someone read it, they should come away feeling like they have to take action right now. There was a lot of feeling around that we needed to get out and DO something.

See... this is the point at which the metaphor becomes useful, I think. Disregarding the 'common' connotations put on it, when I think of the Black Iron Prison, I think primarily:

It is constructed. (Thus the Black Iron.) Likewise, from these there is the impression of strength. This is not something that is broken easily.

Further... there are /other/ people involved in your Prison. Wardens and fellow inmates, if you like. People ARE actively working against you in breaking out. The media, social norms and conventions, all the underlying, niggling little prejudices which colour people due to their upbringing and background. There are politicians, advertisers, extremists, and all manner of other people who desperately want to reinforce the Prison. Because it is a hell of a lot easier for them to do their job if you never stop long enough to realize what sort of world you are being forced to accept as 'real'. Likewise. Those who don't stop and think, would be the inmates in this analogy. Those who do are the ones with you who do, and seek to break out.

The original literature had a lot of Jailbreak theme to it. I like that. To me, struggling against the authority placed over us- even one that doesn't really think it is an authority, is an innately uplifting and upbeat thing. But it needs to be seen as a struggle. And it is never easy. The fact is... even if one does break out of one prison, there is always going to be more tugging at your thoughts. So more to overcome. Nobody ever said this enlightenment schtick, if that is what we are really aiming for here (and I reckon there are worse things to call it) would be easy.

(I also think, in many ways, overcoming the fact that the Black Iron Prison sounds incredibly menacing serves as a good bit of mental practice. Remembering that it isn't like a 'real' prison, and going over the different levels on which it all works, and it can be seen, and so on and so forth... means that explaining the Black Iron Prison, is a lot like running up against the social norms and values which it represents.)

So... you might see it as depressing, but, I see an eternal human struggle to overcome enforced authority as a strongly uplifting image. Different ways to see the same thing, I guess. 

I would disagree. The perception of dress and body language appear much more a part of someones Prison, rather than a dungeon. That is if I don't completely misunderstand where Cain was going with this. I would say the BiD might have much more to do with the physical limitations of the human body. That is, we are limited (no matter what imprints and beliefs we have) to some finite set of Information, ie the information that can be received and processed by the human neurological system. Like the Dungeon, ths isn't being guarded by a social agreement and people aren't being 'reformed'.... they are simply stuck with no recourse (unless Transhumanists are actually dead on).

I think you misunderstood me here; I was saying that the various /physical/ examples being used (Spaceship, submarine, etc etc) are more akin to Dungeon issues than the social ones encountered in the prison. In many ways, the Dungeon seems easier to overcome because those methods are available to provide ways around it; we can use glasses, vehicles, and scientific instruments. So long as we don't forget that these are instruments, this is not a problem. The Prison is more insidious. It is about thought patterns, the way the mind works, and the various traps and tricks it falls into, as well as being the ways that the people around us attempt to subvert our way of thinking into one more suitable to their purposes. This is FAR more difficult to escape, even when one is conscious of it.

Note what I said... not that we can escape all limitations... That is we can 'escape' any social set of rules and replace it with different rules, or no rules at all. With no rules at all, we'll be pretty limited in what we can experience

Ooooh. I see. Limitations =/= Rules.

Hrm. You may be correct here. Though I'd be interested in seeing how you can destroy all rules to social interaction. Even being motivated entirely by self interest would be to accept the 'rules' of your own self interest. But. We do accept some basic rules for ongoing social interaction, you are correct.

Much like how a prison functions under certain routines and policies.

Yet, many people, upon reading the BiP say "this is negative". That's because Prison, in the English language anyway, is distinctly and directly associated with negative things.

Telling someone that its not negative because they can choose the wallpaper and matching carpet for their cell... doesn't seem to balance that out IMO. It also (and IMO more importantly) minimizes the difference between the person who has no idea that they aren't in complete control of Really Real Reality and the person who is actively modifying their perception of reality.

True. It IS a negative metaphor. It is, I believe, designed to be. It is far easier to rile people up to action if they feel that they are in a bad situation. Make people angry, or upset, and they are far more likely to feel a level of ... urgency, I suppose would be the best word for it. At the risk of sounding elitist (which, to some level, it just is.) If they are the sort of person who takes a look at everything that has been said, fully engages and understands it, and then says 'That is depressing, I may as well not bother to do anything about it.' They weren't the sort of person that the literature was intended to win over in the first place.

I'm not convinced on the latter point there, though. There is the world of difference in being a prisoner who goes on the routine of life every day, and the prisoner struggling for something better. The overall message was that, yeah, there is a prison outside the prison outside the prison... but, hell. I don't KNOW what sort of prison it is.

Won't it be fun finding out?

I have a story about this, perhaps I'll post it today :smile:

Please do! I'd enjoy reading it.

Also... for brevity, and because I rambled a bit at first, I didn't respond to each point on the construction of the 'Prison' metaphor individually. I think I covered everything above, though. I always worry I tend to ramble on and on in these sort of discussions. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Good post

I think for me, there is a bit of a problem telling people that they can't escape prison... but they can struggle, if they'd like to. If you told a man in prison that you could guarantee 100% that he will never break out... never be free... would he still try? Perhaps, but it seems more likely, if he KNOWS that he cannot escape, he will in time decide it is better to be comfortable where he is, rather than hopelessly struggling for something that is (in this case, by definition) unachievable.

I posted my little "A Story In Five Parts" feel free to tear into it

[Cainad (dec.)]

Lets get a little metaphysical and overextend our metaphors, shall we?

I was reading Foucault again (a bad habit), this time on the subject of prisons and power relations, and it got me thinking.  For Foucault, a power relation only exists where there is intentionality, therefore in a social sphere.  Prison therefore, is an example of power at work, because the presence of guards, a "reform" system (that doesn't work), a criminal lawyer profession, a prison reform political lobby, a tough on crime lobby, a whole host of politicians, "scare" crime TV etc form a vast chain of interlinking strategies which form a social arrangement we call a prison, where the influence and domination of one group of people is forced upon another.

By contrast, consider a dungeon. A man chained up and left in a cell, forgotten by the world, unwatched, physically constricted and forgotten, but otherwise unmolested, is not caught up in a social power arrangement.  He is physically constricted, to be sure, but otherwise left alone.

Would it not be sensible to consider the Black Iron Dungeon a metaphor for our own physical limitations, our inability to hear beyond certain ranges, our cognitive defects, our lack of strength or whatever as this dungeon?  They are (as of now, at least) conditions we cannot help, they are built-in defects that we cannot overcome.

On the other hand, the Black Iron Prison, like its real life namesake, is that of a social arrangement.  There are factors at work, levels of power, of control, strategies that form the particulars of this prison. 

You see what I mean?  There is an element of power and social relations in the latter not present in the former, which call for different methods of analysis and consideration, concerning their effects and means to change this.  To change the dungeon may involve the utilization of technology, of genetic engineering or smart drugs or whatever, whereas to change the prison, it would involve strategy, social hacks, the utilization of emergence and application of control of options to affect outcomes.

I would just like to say that this OP is a pretty damn good version of what I've been trying to explain for a while, and far more elaborate and specific.

[Dead Kennedy]

I'm hung up on the terminology of the metaphor.

Not to deliberately provoke a hostile response, but the first thing this metaphor says to me is "Cartesian dualism."  Please don't hang me.  Here's the issue:  the Black Iron Dungeon is a metaphor for the body.  But a dungeon is a structure that the prisoner is trapped inside.  So who is the prisoner in this metaphor?  It seems like the prisoner is The Mind.

The Mind trapped inside The Body, which is the Black Iron Dungeon.  I'd like to get away from those kind of metaphors.  RAW uses the metaphor of a Robot to describe much the same thing.  The Robot consists of hardware and software.  This a metaphor of mind and body united.  I like that metaphor better.

The other problems I have with the terminology are pretty trivial and most aesthetic:

1) Prison and Dungeon are very similar concepts, and Foucalt's distinctions between the two are not conventional and require explanation to prevent confusion. 

2) If you combine the two metaphors of BIP and BID, you get: "The Black Iron Dungeon is trapped inside the Black Iron Prison."  That just sounds wrong, clumsy and inelegant. 

3) I agree with the comment that "Black Iron Dungeon" immediately calls to mind "Black Iron Dungeons and Dragons."  I could totally see Goodman Games releasing an adventure called "The Black Iron Dungeon."

The actual concept you are developing is interesting, and I find Erik's comments about binoculars and the like very engaging.  I just have no meaningful input at the moment.

[East Coast Hustle]

I hate to admit it, but I agree with you about the "Black Iron Dungeon" terminology.

[Template]

Fumbled onto F5 and killed my response.

I'm hung up on the terminology of the metaphor.

Not to deliberately provoke a hostile response, but the first thing this metaphor says to me is "Cartesian dualism."  Please don't hang me.  Here's the issue:  the Black Iron Dungeon is a metaphor for the body.  But a dungeon is a structure that the prisoner is trapped inside.  So who is the prisoner in this metaphor?  It seems like the prisoner is The Mind.

The dungeon isn't the body; the dungeon represents all possible minds.  The limits may be purely physical, but that doesn't mean you're ever using all the space.

I suggest putting a desert around the BIP, and calling liveable places Outposts, Oases, or Wellsprings.

I think I slightly mismatched from Cartesian dualism, there.

The Mind trapped inside The Body, which is the Black Iron Dungeon.  I'd like to get away from those kind of metaphors.  RAW uses the metaphor of a Robot to describe much the same thing.  The Robot consists of hardware and software.  This a metaphor of mind and body united.  I like that metaphor better.

The other problems I have with the terminology are pretty trivial and most aesthetic:

1) Prison and Dungeon are very similar concepts, and Foucalt's distinctions between the two are not conventional and require explanation to prevent confusion. 

2) If you combine the two metaphors of BIP and BID, you get: "The Black Iron Dungeon is trapped inside the Black Iron Prison."  That just sounds wrong, clumsy and inelegant.

BID determines possible BIPs.  Not the other way around, as I recall.

3) I agree with the comment that "Black Iron Dungeon" immediately calls to mind "Black Iron Dungeons and Dragons."  I could totally see Goodman Games releasing an adventure called "The Black Iron Dungeon."

The actual concept you are developing is interesting, and I find Erik's comments about binoculars and the like very engaging.  I just have no meaningful input at the moment.

[Dead Kennedy]

The dungeon isn't the body; the dungeon represents all possible minds.  The limits may be purely physical, but that doesn't mean you're ever using all the space.

I suggest putting a desert around the BIP, and calling liveable places Outposts, Oases, or Wellsprings.

No offense dude, but I think you are talking about something VERY different than the idea Cain is developing.  Maybe you should start a thread about your ideas about the BIP.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

Bleh. Cartesian dualism is based on the idea that mind and body are entirely separate. The BIP/BID dichotomy has never been stated to be quite so clean-cut. The BIP and the BID are related and interwoven. Obviously, the mind is in the body in our modern scientific viewpoint, but just as obviously, it is not indistinguishable from the body. If you trim your fingernails, there will be an effect on your mind, but you haven't modified your mind nearly as much as you've modified your body. If you hack off your hand, your body has been modified immediately, but your mind will still have to work pretty hard to adapt (and obviously your mind has some problems if you think hacking off your own hand is a fun thing to do). I think that the distinction we're making here is a valid one, and is useful despite probably seeming to skimmers to be mired in cartesian dualism. I suppose we can try to make it more clear that that's not what we're going for.

[Dead Kennedy]

Bleh. Cartesian dualism is based on the idea that mind and body are entirely separate.

Yeah, I know.  My point is that in the real world a prisoner and a dungeon are completely separate.  So when you use a metaphor that equates the body with a dungeon and implictly equates you/Mind with the prisoner, then suddenly quite by accident your metaphor has drifted and is now Cartesian.

As you say, the separation between mind and body isn't supposed to be clear cut in the concept of the BID, but the separation between prisoner and dungeon IS clear cut, which is why it doesn't work so hot as a metaphor.  It is prone to metaphor drift, where the metaphor being used implies relationships that actually confuse the issue rather than clarifying it.

The BIP/BID dichotomy has never been stated to be quite so clean-cut. The BIP and the BID are related and interwoven. Obviously, the mind is in the body in our modern scientific viewpoint, but just as obviously, it is not indistinguishable from the body. If you trim your fingernails, there will be an effect on your mind, but you haven't modified your mind nearly as much as you've modified your body. If you hack off your hand, your body has been modified immediately, but your mind will still have to work pretty hard to adapt (and obviously your mind has some problems if you think hacking off your own hand is a fun thing to do). I think that the distinction we're making here is a valid one, and is useful despite probably seeming to skimmers to be mired in cartesian dualism. I suppose we can try to make it more clear that that's not what we're going for.

Hmm.  Here's some other things to consider:

1) If Bob jumps out a shadow with a gun pointed at you, your body will begin reacting before you are consciously aware of what is happening.  By the time you begin to make a conscious choices in reaction to the situation, your body has already begun to release chemicals into your bloodtream that will affect your decision making processes.

2) Your decision making process will also probably change if Jane jumps out of you with her boobs exposed.  Again, by the time you begin to make a conscious choices in reaction to the situation, your body has already begun to release chemicals into your bloodtream that will affect your decision making processes.

3) If you eat a large turkey dinner, you will tend to decide to relax and take things easy afterwards due to chemicals in the turkey that make you sleepy.  That's turkey. Other foods, from chocolate to sugar to coffee, have mood altering effects.  Some people believe that the industrial revolution and the Enlightenment could not have happen were it not for the introduction of coffee to Europe.  And then there's Real Drugs.  From fly agaric to ecstasy there are a huge range of chemicals that completely alter brain function.

We tend to forget that when we say mind is emergent process of the body that it's a continuous process, always ongoing, always affected by changes in the body -- which can be brought on by a threat, a temptation, or even a slab of turkey.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Hmm.  Here's some other things to consider:

1) If Bob jumps out a shadow with a gun pointed at you, your body will begin reacting before you are consciously aware of what is happening.  By the time you begin to make a conscious choices in reaction to the situation, your body has already begun to release chemicals into your bloodtream that will affect your decision making processes.

2) Your decision making process will also probably change if Jane jumps out of you with her boobs exposed.  Again, by the time you begin to make a conscious choices in reaction to the situation, your body has already begun to release chemicals into your bloodtream that will affect your decision making processes.

3) If you eat a large turkey dinner, you will tend to decide to relax and take things easy afterwards due to chemicals in the turkey that make you sleepy.  That's turkey. Other foods, from chocolate to sugar to coffee, have mood altering effects.  Some people believe that the industrial revolution and the Enlightenment could not have happen were it not for the introduction of coffee to Europe.  And then there's Real Drugs.  From fly agaric to ecstasy there are a huge range of chemicals that completely alter brain function.

We tend to forget that when we say mind is emergent process of the body that it's a continuous process, always ongoing, always affected by changes in the body -- which can be brought on by a threat, a temptation, or even a slab of turkey.

All of these effects, including even most of the drug related ones will vary depending on the level of conscious control the user exerts over his own equipment, especially if the user has decided to prepare his equipment for these kinds of situations.

In teh extreme - someone jumps out with a gun - example you give, one would expect an average person to be overwhelmed with panic reactions, either freezing in the headlights or by running like hell. If, however, the gun is drawn against a subject who is trained and practised in techniques for disarming armed opponents, the chances are the huge burst of adrenaline and endorphins will have much less of an impact on the reaction which will be much more governed by will and muscle memory.

At the risk of sounding like Crowley - will is the factor that makes all the difference. The chemicals are there regardless, but whether or not they hold sway is a variable.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Hmm.  Here's some other things to consider:

1) If Bob jumps out a shadow with a gun pointed at you, your body will begin reacting before you are consciously aware of what is happening.  By the time you begin to make a conscious choices in reaction to the situation, your body has already begun to release chemicals into your bloodtream that will affect your decision making processes.

2) Your decision making process will also probably change if Jane jumps out of you with her boobs exposed.  Again, by the time you begin to make a conscious choices in reaction to the situation, your body has already begun to release chemicals into your bloodtream that will affect your decision making processes.

3) If you eat a large turkey dinner, you will tend to decide to relax and take things easy afterwards due to chemicals in the turkey that make you sleepy.  That's turkey. Other foods, from chocolate to sugar to coffee, have mood altering effects.  Some people believe that the industrial revolution and the Enlightenment could not have happen were it not for the introduction of coffee to Europe.  And then there's Real Drugs.  From fly agaric to ecstasy there are a huge range of chemicals that completely alter brain function.

We tend to forget that when we say mind is emergent process of the body that it's a continuous process, always ongoing, always affected by changes in the body -- which can be brought on by a threat, a temptation, or even a slab of turkey.

All of these effects, including even most of the drug related ones will vary depending on the level of conscious control the user exerts over his own equipment, especially if the user has decided to prepare his equipment for these kinds of situations.

In teh extreme - someone jumps out with a gun - example you give, one would expect an average person to be overwhelmed with panic reactions, either freezing in the headlights or by running like hell. If, however, the gun is drawn against a subject who is trained and practised in techniques for disarming armed opponents, the chances are the huge burst of adrenaline and endorphins will have much less of an impact on the reaction which will be much more governed by will and muscle memory.

At the risk of sounding like Crowley - will is the factor that makes all the difference. The chemicals are there regardless, but whether or not they hold sway is a variable.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Not to deliberately provoke a hostile response, but the first thing this metaphor says to me is "Cartesian dualism."  Please don't hang me.  Here's the issue:  the Black Iron Dungeon is a metaphor for the body.  But a dungeon is a structure that the prisoner is trapped inside.  So who is the prisoner in this metaphor?  It seems like the prisoner is The Mind.

The Mind trapped inside The Body, which is the Black Iron Dungeon.  I'd like to get away from those kind of metaphors.  RAW uses the metaphor of a Robot to describe much the same thing.  The Robot consists of hardware and software.  This a metaphor of mind and body united.  I like that metaphor better.

A Model:

Let the Black Iron Dungeon stand for 'the physical limits to our external sensory capabilities".
Let the Black Iron Prison stand for "the imposed limits and interpretations of sensory input".

In this case, rather than a Cartesian Duality of Mind/Body... we're speaking entirely within the neurological chain.

Now, within the Black Iron Prison, perhaps we can say that there is a Warden  (RAW's Thinker) and the Guard (RAW's Prover). What the Warden believes about the Prison, the Guard enforces. The Warden can be bought, he can be influenced by 'outsiders', he can be tricked and fooled. The Prisoner then, is the Perceiver rather than the Mind OR Soul; the 'I' which perceives the output of the neurological system. The prisoner might be able to stage a breakout and pay off the warden, trick the warden etc.

As a separate metaphor, the Black Iron Dungeon has a single architect and Master: DNA. While it's possibly to remodel the dungeon (ala transhumanism), it is not really something you can escape. The Prisoner trapped inside is 'The Perceiver' just as with the Prison.

These both, I think, work as separate, but complementary models. I have yet to develop the GUIT, or Grand Unified Incarceration Theory. However, there are several notes in the margins which will probably explain it, once we figure out the maths.

[AFK]

I think it's just due to how I define and interpret the BIP metaphor, but the BID metaphor seems redundant to me.  My conception of BIP incorporates both the physical limits of our external sensory capabillities AND the imposed limits and interpretations of sensory input.  They're different kinds of bars.  OR, they are different ingredients that make the bars, etc.