The Black Iron DUNGEON vs the Black Iron PRISON

[LMNO]

You CAN'T escape the prison.

Sure you can.  I do it all the time.  I have a guest pass.

The prison represents all that we can experience as humans.  Humans, because of the limitations of their brain, among other things, can only actually gain experience from a certain percentage of the larger universe or Reality.  As such, it is physically and mentally impossible for us to ever escape the prison.  That's why the cells are important.  We can't escape the prison but we can move from one cell to another. 

You seem to have completely misunderstood the concept of the Black Iron Prison.

The Prison does not represent "all that we can experience as humans."  That would make it a useless metaphor.   The Prison metaphor represents the socially constructed simulacra of reality that limits our experience of reality.

DK:  We wrote the damn thing.  I have a feeling if anyone should know what the metaphor represents, it would be us.

Our perceptions are limited by our physical bodies.

Our perceptions are further limited by our thought structures.

These limitations are what make up the Black Iron Prison.

You can change some of the thought structures, and you can use technology to help overcome some of the physical limitations, but you can't escape the Prison.

This might help as a quick 'n' dirty summary.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

You seem to have completely misunderstood the concept of the Black Iron Prison.

\

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think we defined our terms adequately in the previous posts in this thread and in other places in this forum and site. If you choose to ignore those definitions it will prevent useful communication and discussion in relation to the metaphor we are using.

If you use different terms or definitions from those outlined above, or feel the metaphor is inaccurate based on the definitions listed in prior posts (which I've included again below), then by all means define your terms or base your arguments on the definitions commonly agreed upon in this thread. I'd be interested in hearing it. Otherwise I await discussion of this topic in relation to the definitions I've used above:

BIP - the broad concept that we are limited by a series of physical and social limitations in how we perceive and interact with ourselves and others.
Cells or Bars - the social limitations we place within the broader framework of the BIP
Prison Walls - the physical limitations that serve as further limiters for the Cells within the broader BIP

DK, I grok the issues you have with the metaphor, I share many of them.

However, in the context that TOG and others are using it, the prison is inescapable... because it IS the human neurological system.

Let's not muddle our models... the BiP is whatever it is defined as. If you define the Prison as escapable social controls, then what does your map model physical limitation as?

Myself, I find that the BiP as modeled by many people here to have a number of flaws. So I have a different model... but that's not what the BiP IS (even if ToG and others think they know)... its just some semantic BS that is tied to variations on similar concepts in our brains.

[LMNO]

Now hold on...


Rat, I know you don't like the way we put together the BIP metaphor.  But rather than redefine it, you've decided to build another metaphor that works better for you... the submarine, I think you call it.

When we argue about "jailbreak" and "escaping", you don't try to redefine our metaphor... or at least you don't tell us that our definitions are "wrong".

If DK doesn't like our concept, that's fine.  But at least he should understand our concept before rejecting it.

[Dead Kennedy]

I think you have a different concept of the BIP.  Perhaps yours is more closely aligned with Dick, from whom we borrowed the label.  But the model we constructed is different than his and I suggest you might want to read up on some of the older threads in this subforum so that you have a clearer understanding of what the PD.COM model of BIP represents.

You mean Phillip K. Dick?  Dick's concept of the Black Iron Prison is pure metaphysical wankery.  He was referring to a distortion in time and space that began with the destruction of the Temple of Solomon and ended with the bombing of Hiroshima. His supposition was that all the history between the two points was illusory.  My friend Chuck actually subscribes to this belief.  Or he says he does.  You can never tell with him.

My model is more closely aligned with Robert Anton Wilson's model -- he borrowed the label from Dick, you all borrowed it from him.  It seems like you have attempted to build on RAW's model, but it also seems like you have expanded his idea in a way that totally busts the metaphor.  I'm not sure if this is just you, RWHN, or if its the collective you (pd.com).   Because Ratatosk and Cain both seem to be skewing towards RAW's model.

In RAW's model, the term Black Iron Prison works as a metaphor because the thing he is referring to as the BIP has common elements with a real prison.  Those common elements are:

1) Society puts you there.
2) You can escape.
3) It necessarily sucks being there.

You appear to be using the term Black Iron Prison to refer to a thing that:

1) Society does not put you in.
2) You cannot escape from.
3) It does not necessarily suck being there.

This begs the question "How is the Black Iron Prison like a prison at all?"  The thing you are describing could be represented in metaphor by any structure subdivided into chambers.  A cavern, a mansion, a honeycomb.  There doesn't seem to be anything specifically prison-like about the thing you are describing.

And of course, the whole point of the Black Iron Prison metaphor is to set-up the Jailbreak metaphor.  So by redefining the Black Iron Prison as inescapable by changing what the metaphor refers to from socially constructed simulacra to reality-as-it-is actually ends up mitigating the usefulness of the metaphor to inspire real action.  It ends up becoming omphaloskepsis.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Now hold on...


Rat, I know you don't like the way we put together the BIP metaphor.  But rather than redefine it, you've decided to build another metaphor that works better for you... the submarine, I think you call it.

When we argue about "jailbreak" and "escaping", you don't try to redefine our metaphor... or at least you don't tell us that our definitions are "wrong".

If DK doesn't like our concept, that's fine.  But at least he should understand our concept before rejecting it.

I agree. I'm not sure what the hold on is for..

[Dead Kennedy]

DK, I grok the issues you have with the metaphor, I share many of them.

However, in the context that TOG and others are using it, the prison is inescapable... because it IS the human neurological system.

Let's not muddle our models... the BiP is whatever it is defined as.

I find that very strange, since they are acting like they invented the model.  But Robert Anton Wilson invented it.  And he was most certainly not referring to the human neurological system as the Black Iron Prison, that's almost a total inversion of what he was referring to.  Talk about muddling models!  I can see why Cain is seeking alternative metaphors (The Black Iron Dungeon).

If you define the Prison as escapable social controls, then what does your map model physical limitation as?

Earlier I discussed the Prisoner as a potential metaphor (map), but I generally don't feel a need to have all of my maps work with all my other maps.  I like the Domesticated Primate model, and the Broken Robots model.  And yes,I know I am a total RAW fanboy.

Myself, I find that the BiP as modeled by many people here to have a number of flaws. So I have a different model... but that's not what the BiP IS (even if ToG and others think they know)... its just some semantic BS that is tied to variations on similar concepts in our brains.

In the future when I refer to the Black Iron Prison I will try to distinguish between RAW's version, which I find a very workable metaphor (as I've illustrated in my previous posts in this thread), and the Alternative Black Iron Prison.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

Can someone link me to RAW's version? I have many of his books, and I haven't ever come across him using the phrase Black Iron Prison.

[LMNO]

You mean Phillip K. Dick?  Dick's concept of the Black Iron Prison is pure metaphysical wankery.  

No.  


I have made it clear from the very beginning that I ripped off PKD's phrase and applied it to the "Discordia Revisited" project we worked on in 2006.

It would appear that you might not have have had access to all the available literature developed since then.

Please go here and do some reading: http://www.blackironprison.com/index .  We'll be here when you get back.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

DK, I grok the issues you have with the metaphor, I share many of them.

However, in the context that TOG and others are using it, the prison is inescapable... because it IS the human neurological system.

Let's not muddle our models... the BiP is whatever it is defined as.

I find that very strange, since they are acting like they invented the model.  But Robert Anton Wilson invented it.  And he was most certainly not referring to the human neurological system as the Black Iron Prison, that's almost a total inversion of what he was referring to.  Talk about muddling models!  I can see why Cain is seeking alternative metaphors (The Black Iron Dungeon).

Well, personally I agree and that's why I promote a different model. However, for whatever reason, sombunal of the site members feel that an inescapable prison most closely models the reality they have experienced. Thus you and I may prefer other models that use similar semantic terms, but that doesn't mean, necessarily that they misunderstand their model... just that you and I tend to see other models as more compelling. No?

Also, I don't think Uncle Bob invented the BiP metaphor.

If you define the Prison as escapable social controls, then what does your map model physical limitation as?

Earlier I discussed the Prisoner as a potential metaphor (map), but I generally don't feel a need to have all of my maps work with all my other maps.  I like the Domesticated Primate model, and the Broken Robots model.  And yes,I know I am a total RAW fanboy.

I love Uncle Bob and I dig his metaphors and books.. and some here might consider me a fanboy (but having seen what the old man did to 'fans' and 'disciples' I try to hide it )

Myself, I find that the BiP as modeled by many people here to have a number of flaws. So I have a different model... but that's not what the BiP IS (even if ToG and others think they know)... its just some semantic BS that is tied to variations on similar concepts in our brains.

In the future when I refer to the Black Iron Prison I will try to distinguish between RAW's version, which I find a very workable metaphor (as I've illustrated in my previous posts in this thread), and the Alternative Black Iron Prison.

That would probably clear up a lot of the arguing

I went through a similar experience when I showed up here and said "WTF?"... I just thought you could benefit from my experience

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Can someone link me to RAW's version? I have many of his books, and I haven't ever come across him using the phrase Black Iron Prison.

Yeah, I thought maybe I had forgotten something there... I don't remember Bob ever using that term. But then I often read RAW stoned (as proscribed by the Magus himself)... it makes sense that way

[Dead Kennedy]

You mean Phillip K. Dick?  Dick's concept of the Black Iron Prison is pure metaphysical wankery.  

No.

What do you mean "No?"  What are you saying no to?  It would appear you are saying "No,  Dick's concept of the Black Iron Prison is not pure metaphysical wankery."  But the rest of your comments don't support this point.  

I have made it clear from the very beginning that I ripped off PKD's phrase and applied it to the "Discordia Revisited" project we worked on in 2006.

Congratulations, that makes you the second person associated with Discordianism to do that.

Can someone link me to RAW's version? I have many of his books, and I haven't ever come across him using the phrase Black Iron Prison.

I'm not sure which book it is specifically, having read the majority of them in one stretch ten years ago, but I just called Chuck and he seems to think that RAW discusses it in-depth in either Coincidance or The New Inquistion.  I'm thinking it's more likely the latter, since TNI is really all about the limitations of reality tunnels.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Alright, I don't really care to read the last few pages, because I have a bone to pick.

The Black Iron Prison does NOT have Cartesian Dualism built into it. The mind and body are not separated into Prisoner (mind) and Prison Cell (body), because a huge component of the prison cell is the mind itself. I would personally go so far as to say that the mental component of the prison cell is the one many of us are most interested in.

The beliefs and thought patterns we don't (or won't) question are as much a part of the cell as our physical limitations. The only difference is that we have a pretty strong say in whether or not we will allow those "bars" to exist, or what form they will take.

Furthermore, it is very strongly implied that our personalities and interactions with the world around us depend heavily on how we are able to perceive the world though the bars. So it is pretty clear that the mind (soul, self, ego, whatever the fuck) is intrinsically connected to the physical body (which also forms part of the Cell), not a separate entity.

[AFK]

You appear to be using the term Black Iron Prison to refer to a thing that:

1) Society does not put you in.
2) You cannot escape from.
3) It does not necessarily suck being there.

1) Society in part, informs where you are in the Prison.  What cell you occupy.  Another informant would be the physiological.  Our existence depends heavily upon nature AND nurture. 
2) No, you cannot escape it because you cannot escape your biology.  You cannot escape your human limitations.  That's why the "prison" part of the metaphor is important.  Not because of some dark connotations, but because it denotes the fact that you cannot transcend the limitations inherent in being a part of the human race.  HOWEVER, the caveat is that the Prison walls are amorphous.  Just when we think we've discovered all we can discover, we feel along and find that at some points, the walls go back further than we had anticipated.  There is more territory to explore, more paths to take.
3) Correct.  It might suck, it might not.  It depends on your outlook and how you react to the bars in your cell.  But, you have the freedom of movement to explore more of the Prison if you don't like where you are.  Find another cell, explore more of the territory. 

[Dead Kennedy]

Alright, I don't really care to read the last few pages, because I have a bone to pick.

The Black Iron Prison does NOT have Cartesian Dualism built into it. The mind and body are not separated into Prisoner (mind) and Prison Cell (body), because a huge component of the prison cell is the mind itself. I would personally go so far as to say that the mental component of the prison cell is the one many of us are most interested in.

You're so not actually listening to what I'm saying.

I know that the concept of the Alt. Black Iron Prison (the territory) is not Cartesian in nature.  The problem is that the metaphor of a prison and the metaphor of a prison cell both imply a prisoner, and thus introduce Cartesianism.

The Cartesianism isn't in the territory, it's in the map of the territory.

Furthermore, it is very strongly implied that our personalities and interactions with the world around us depend heavily on how we are able to perceive the world though the bars. So it is pretty clear that the mind (soul, self, ego, whatever the fuck) is intrinsically connected to the physical body (which also forms part of the Cell), not a separate entity.

And the metaphor implies the exact opposite.